[Fleecewife]

      The Five Freedoms

   # Freedom from Hunger and Thirst.
   # Freedom from Discomfort.
   # Freedom from Pain, Injury or Disease.
   # Freedom to Express Normal Behavior.
   # Freedom from Fear and Distress.

These are factors we MUST all take into consideration when we decide which animals to keep and how to keep them.  They apply to all captive animals:  farm livestock, zoo animals, working animals and pets.  These are the basic welfare standards below which no-one should fall.

Please think carefully whether you come up to scratch.

[Sean Phlib]

Well said!  Jesus told us to treat others as we would have them treat us.  I include all the creatures on my holding - wild and domestic -  under that umbrella.

[Steph Hen]

Although as a somewhat autistic very black and white thinker I don’t understand them.

Fear is unavoidable at times.
Pain is caused eg. Tagging.
Chickens are thirsty in the morning (I could put a light in their quarters to extend day length and thus opportunity to feed and drink but is this natural?).
None of our animals exhibit natural behaviours all the time. Neutered Cats living in houses chasing bits of plastic? Racehorse in a stable 15 hours a day.

I believe we all know what is right for them without being told but by being free to ask and feeling what’s right. Legislation scares me.
People compare it too driving laws: but there are loads of country roads which are unsafe driven at 60mph; especially if there’s mud or other road users... it comes down to doing what’s considerate and feels right as it’s not possible to legislate for everything.

[Fleecewife]

Although as a somewhat autistic very black and white thinker I don’t understand them.

Fear is unavoidable at times. 
Pain is caused eg. Tagging. 
Chickens are thirsty in the morning (I could put a light in their quarters to extend day length and thus opportunity to feed and drink but is this natural?). 
None of our animals exhibit natural behaviours all the time. Neutered Cats living in houses chasing bits of plastic? Racehorse in a stable 15 hours a day. 

I believe we all know what is right for them without being told but by being free to ask and feeling what’s right. Legislation scares me.   
People compare it too driving laws: but there are loads of country roads which are unsafe driven at 60mph; especially if there’s mud or other road users... it comes down to doing what’s considerate and feels right as it’s not possible to legislate for everything. 

Fear is unavoidable at times. True - but animals have been kept in a state of constant fear in some horrible cases.  Knowing it's wrong, we can guard against it in our own animal handling and in what we see others do.  Of course any normal thinking person will know it's wrong, but people get hardened to things and commit the most appalling cruelties just because 'that's what everyone does'

Pain is caused eg. Tagging. It is, and many of us detest having to tag - so this list of freedoms gives us backing for objections, or we can use a different type of marking such as leg bands

Chickens are thirsty in the morning (I could put a light in their quarters to extend day length and thus opportunity to feed and drink but is this natural?).  Birds in the wild are thirsty in the morning as they've been asleep all night.  The point is that they must have access to water when they wake up and want it.  I feel very strongly that artificial light to keep hens laying for longer is very wrong and does not contribute to their welfare, therefore I don't do it.  I have made a choice and the Freedoms have helped me justify that choice.

None of our animals exhibit natural behaviours all the time. Neutered Cats living in houses chasing bits of plastic? Racehorse in a stable 15 hours a day.  Perhaps those who keep their horses indoors should have a good think about that.  On the other hand, horses need shelter from the weather.  There are nuances, and you just have to consider them in your final decision.  It isn't black and white Steph!  I think horses have a tendency to gorge a bit which can make them ill (I've never kept a horse so I don't know the specifics) so perhaps keeping them with just hay for a bit is to protect them?

I believe we all know what is right for them without being told but by being free to ask and feeling what’s right. Legislation scares me.   It isn't legislation - it's to make you think, which is just what you are doing   Sadly, it isn't the case that 'we all know what is right'.  There are massive cruelties perpetrated against animals all the time, such as the conditions pigs are kept in in some commercial units.  It was things like keeping veal calves in darkened crates, and keeping laying hens in barren batteries that inspired the writing of the Five Freedoms, and have resulted in those livestock-keeping methods being banned here. There are more to address, such as the methods of slaughter in some countries which to me are simply barbaric.  Puppy farming - we all surely know that's wrong?  But clearly those who do it think it's fine (or don't care). Being able to quote the Five Freedoms can back up the reasons it's wrong, but only legislation seems able to stop the practice and the cruelty.

People compare it too driving laws: but there are loads of country roads which are unsafe driven at 60mph; especially if there’s mud or other road users... it comes down to doing what’s considerate and feels right as it’s not possible to legislate for everything.  Again, it's not legislation, it's an attitude to the keeping of animals, which is itself not 'natural', to minimise any cruelty. I'm not saying the Five Freedoms are perfect but at least if people are aware of them, then they can have a good think and decide for themselves, a sort of double check, that they are doing the very best for their animals.  Knowing the Five Freedoms also means that we have  a framework for our thoughts if we see what we think may be cruelty, and to give us ammunition to involve officialdom if necessary.   
I wrote this post after reading something on another thread which to me amounts to cruelty, albeit unknowing cruelty.  I hope that writer reads this and has a think.  The decision is theirs.


ps:  I had a big fight with the formatting of this reply - if you can't read it, please let me know.  It looks ok to me but........

[Steph Hen]

Thanks for your reply Fleecewife,   I’ve no comeback as I thought it was legislation/law of some sort rather than best practice to be considered. I hate cruelty too :-(

It is thought provoking though it’s strange to me, they seem almost oxymoronic: a bit like safe and free, controlled but not stressed. I can think of so many exceptions that if law they could probably have all animals taken off all every keeper. But good if it helps target cruelty and isn’t taken to the extreme and is a useful for self analysis tool.

[doganjo]

I think your autism is getting in the way of your common sense.  No need to analyse to that extent

We must all abide by our conscience. 

Gods of any sort don't come into it, in my opinion, but I appreciate some people do have a belief in that

Be kind is the only maxim required

I'm a wysiwyg, no grey, only black and white

[lord flynn]

I've not been on here for a while, hi Fleecewife    I hope you are well.


I have a different angle on lights for poultry.


I keep my backyard hens in and under lights from end of October through to end of Feb (even when there is no legal need). The lights are on from 5am until 4pm (they still have some natural daylight and tend to go to bed before 4pm anyway). Jungle fowl originate somewhat closer to the equator, which has a more even daytime/night time distribution (longest night is 10 hours and its mostly around 8-9 hours) . If kept in Scotland in the winter without lights, they are not eating from 3.30-8.30 in the depths of winter and that is too long for my birds. I do get some eggs but I don't do it for that reason. I think I am doing ok, some of my original hens made it to 11/12 years of age. They have been domesticated a long time and some breeds are hardier than others but they are still basically jungle fowl.




Its quite easy to provide a good, indoor environment with lots of enrichment for hens-my place is very exposed and my hens do better inside in the winter, have now done it for 6 years. Ducks are a different matter!Much more difficult and I don't keep them in routinely.


I am in and out of different poultry units often for work, there may be issues but lack of food and water isn't one of them. Yes they want maximum egg production year round, but legalisation wouldn't allow them to not have food available as long as some backyard flocks do.


The five freedoms is a good basic level and care should absolutely not fall below that-more current thinking is more along the lines of 'a life worth living'. I am off to find the offending post!

[Fleecewife]

Happy searching  . I know you keep your livestock with a high welfare standard. Your use of winter lights is interesting and thought provoking  .   We have found that it's more battling the weather which strains our hens than any lack of food, but they are in slightly better condition here when they have been in the tunnel for the winter rather than ranging outside, although they seem to like the snow until it becomes slush.     


We are so glad you returned Malcolm the Shetland Gander when he was the last one standing.  He's having the time of his life with his little family back home.  He grew his clipped wing back and has never flown away.  I've not bred the original pair again.


Good you've come back to TAS.  Stay safe 

[Fleecewife]

Thanks for your reply Fleecewife,   I’ve no comeback as I thought it was legislation/law of some sort rather than best practice to be considered. I hate cruelty too :-(

It is thought provoking though it’s strange to me, they seem almost oxymoronic: a bit like safe and free, controlled but not stressed. I can think of so many exceptions that if law they could probably have all animals taken off all every keeper. But good if it helps target cruelty and isn’t taken to the extreme and is a useful for self analysis tool.

Hi Steph

Some of the parts of the Five Freedoms have had laws based on the principles expressed, but for welfare to be made into laws it needs a massive input to try to sort out the 'what-ifs' and the 'buts' .   I found this when I was wondering where they came from originally:  https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/an_animal_welfare_history_lesson_on_the_five_freedoms#:~:text=Updated%20from%20an%20original%20article,and%20why%20they%20have%20endured.

If you think about it for long enough you end up not eating meat at the very least, because, as you say, keeping animals in captivity cannot truly equate with the principles of the Five Freedoms.  It really isn't straight forward or simplistic, but we are where we are in the world, with a large proportion of the global population eating meat (some far too much!) and I suppose the need to justify that.  For myself, I started eating meat when we began living here on our smallholding and found ourselves with surplus sheep.  We knew they had been raised in as 'good' a way as possible and not to eat them seemed ungrateful for their lives.  We don't eat chicken, very rarely beef, but to my shame I do eat bacon and occasionally ham - although I won't keep pigs myself to kill.  That's a double standard if anything is, and I am ashamed of myself

[lord flynn]

We are so glad you returned Malcolm the Shetland Gander when he was the last one standing.  He's having the time of his life with his little family back home.  He grew his clipped wing back and has never flown away.  I've not bred the original pair again.


Good you've come back to TAS.  Stay safe 

I am really glad he's got such a nice life with you, thank you for the update! I get tempted by geese every so often, they are so beautiful, but this flu outbreak has reminded me that I perhaps have enough birds for now

[Backinwellies]

Do you all know that in UK there is a welface code written for all types of livestock and you should have read and put in to practice the ones relating to the stock you keep ..... these are 'guidlines' but are backed by law .....

one for sheep .....
 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69365/pb5162-sheep-041028.pdf

others can be found here.... https://www.gov.uk/guidance/farm-animals-looking-after-their-welfare