[tommytink]

No I’ve not tried to get her a lamb. To be honest I don’t want the biosecurity risk as the way our luck has gone I’ll be asking for it. The lambing loss course I went to (how ironic!) said bringing in orphan lambs can be a large factor in the transmission of enzootic abortion due to not knowing history etc. and as we don’t have any symptoms of that (touch wood) I don’t want to jinx it. Plus the chance she wouldn’t take to it either, I don’t want any pet lambs if it can be helped.

[SallyintNorth]

Enzootic abortion is spread by contact with foetal material, birth fluids and the placenta from an aborting ewe.  A live healthy orphan lamb is not a vector for this disease.

[twizzel]

My experience differs.  In general I have found that a bereaved ewe will take a foster without too much trouble.  Setting a second lamb onto a ewe which has lost one of a pair, now that is a different kettle of fish altogether and I no longer attempt that; even when you get it to work, you too often find the fostered lamb doesn't do as well because she always favours her natural child, and you often find that in fact the fostered child is pinching from other ewes, which is not in anybody's interests.

With a bereaved ewe, it certainly helps to rub the foster into the birth fluids and the dead lamb (make sure you get the smell onto the top of its head, and under and over the top of its tail), and having the dead lamb's skin as a jacket can help too.   (Leave the anus and tail on the skin if you can bear too - it does help.)  But even when you don't have all those things, you can usually get her to take a foster with a little patience.  Support feeds - hold the ewe steady, gently but firmly, while the lamb gets a bellyful - until one day you find the lamb isn't hungry

Funny how sheep differ- i fostered a lamb onto a ewe at the weekend that had a dead lamb and live twin- nabbed the live lamb before she licked it too much, wet the fostered lamb, mixed the 2 together in a bucket, gave the ewe the fostered lamb which she started licking, then gave her her own lamb. She took both, and is totally 100% happy with the fostered one. Last year she also fostered a lamb using the skin method after both her lambs were born dead.


Yet my ewe with her dead lambs did not want to know the fostered lamb wearing the skin (and I left the tail on too). And in fact rejected her own lamb 2 years ago even after spending a decent spell in an adopter. So after blood testing to find out why she aborted, she will go for cull 

[harmony]

I don't know how easy it is to get your sheep to and from the field but if it is likely to cause stress don't do it.


I assume you have mothering pens set up in your shed. I would have put the sheep and her dead lamb in a pen until either I had a foster lamb or until she stopped shouting for it.


I find disinfectant powder really useful in the lamb shed.


 

[tommytink]

Here’s the link that’s actually relevant to the courses I attended. Says enzo can be passed from infected ewe to ewe lamb.

https://businesswales.gov.wales/farmingconnect/news-and-events/news/vets-advise-sheep-farmers-preventing-abortion-and-barren-ewes

Ram lambs could bring it in but unlikely unless as you say contaminated from foetal matter.

[harmony]

Here’s the link that’s actually relevant to the courses I attended. Says enzo can be passed from infected ewe to ewe lamb.

https://businesswales.gov.wales/farmingconnect/news-and-events/news/vets-advise-sheep-farmers-preventing-abortion-and-barren-ewes

Ram lambs could bring it in but unlikely unless as you say contaminated from foetal matter.

It is always a risk bringing new stock on. It is the same at tupping time if you don't have a closed flock.


The point you make about ewes passing enzo to ewe lambs means you shouldn't keep those ewe lambs for breeding.


You don't know why you lost your lamb. Only a PM would have given you the answer. It could be that bringing them in at the weekend caused her stress and it was not infection. Hopefully, you have just had a bad start and things will get better.

[tommytink]

Personally I blame myself. I think she may have needed help a bit of help and we hadn’t checked in time. The OH seems to think it may already have been dead, but this kind of matches what I think. I will always be the person that feels responsible and that I should’ve/could’ve done more.

She didn’t seem stressed at all when she came in. They are easy to move, they just follow you, so no herding or pressure applied to them.

We made the decision to move her out of the lambing area and into a field with the other two non-pregnant ewes. Thought it best to get her out of that area where there must still be smells, and she remembers the lamb being there. She seems better for it in that she’s no longer constantly calling, so hopefully she’ll continue to settle.

[bj_cardiff]

Personally I blame myself. I think she may have needed help a bit of help and we hadn’t checked in time.

I think that is quite a natural thing to do, but in reality you can't be there every moment of the day. Some ewes are very obvious when lambing and some don't show at all. Even the most experienced people get cought out, so try not to feel too down.

I have CCTV in the shed this year and its made a massive difference. Last night I watched my partner go and check the ewes, I could see one was in the early stages but she looked totally normal when being visually checked. On CCTV I could keep an eye on her without her realising she was being watched. You can also view on your phone, so you can check them in the night without even getting out of bed!

[tommytink]

I would love cctv and did look into it at the weekend but trouble is our WiFi signal won’t reach that far. We’d have to hardwire it which is a project for another time. That’s if we keep going!!

Am checking every two hours now but it’s hard to do without disturbing them. It’s only a small lambing shed, so if we go in they’re right there and sometimes they get up, but if we look through the slats from the outside it’s difficult to see if anything’s happening. They’re all usually laid down, not moving about. I guess we’ll be able to tell when something is happening. If something is happening do you stay in the shed to make sure things go ok, or leave them be and check every ten mins or so?

[harmony]

A ewe looking to lamb will take herself off from the main flock so that is usually your first indication. I know they don't read the book but you might find it helpful to write down the process and possible timings in a bullet point list. If I had a ewe that had gone off to a quiet corner I'd check in half an hour. If you feel unsure what to do put the kettle on and think through what you think is happening and if you need to do anything, if you think you need to do something ask yourself why. And don't forget to drink your tea. 

[SallyintNorth]

If you walk into their space, that will disturb them a little, even once they're used to you.

Is there room in the shed to make a wee hurdle or pellet pen around the door?  If you can get them used to you coming in to that, but not into their area, then you should be able to check on them without disturbing them, or at least not more than having them look up at you.

If you can put a chair in that little observation pen, and take a cuppa down with you, and sit and drink your cuppa while keeping an eye on them, you will probably not miss signs that someone is thinking about lambing.  If you just look for 30 seconds, they will mask any changes because of the "sheep prey, human predator" thing  

[twizzel]

The sure fire way to tell if she is close (less than 12 hours) to lambing is when her flanks hollow just in front of the hips- the lambs have then moved into the birth canal. With a bit of practise you’ll be able to tell who is close to lambing and who isn’t.

[SallyintNorth]

The sure fire way to tell if she is close (less than 12 hours) to lambing is when her flanks hollow just in front of the hips- the lambs have then moved into the birth canal. With a bit of practise you’ll be able to tell who is close to lambing and who isn’t.

Once you've developed your 'eye' for it, it's a great indicator for an imminent lambing, I agree.  Dangerous to assume the other way around, that she won't lamb overnight if she doesn't have the hollow! 

[tommytink]

Yep - did the bullet point list! Thought it’d help as you say to have it down simple.

The shed isn’t massive. We have a couple of pens set up to one side of the door and they have free access to the yard area in the day. So I haven’t room to make around the door but this has given me an idea of how to check them with hopefully less disturbance. I won’t bore you with the details but thank you for the idea Sally!

I did calmly sit in with them this morning. One was laid down and I’m sure her tummy was moving! I’ll an eye for the hollow flanks.

So just to confirm, if they are up to something they will prob stop if we’re just having a look, and we should actually wait a few minutes for them to relax again to be able to tell?

I take a torch down and point this to the ceiling so it lights it up without blinding anyone. We did buy some nightlights but as it’s not an enclosed room it didn’t really work!

[SallyintNorth]

I don't agree with the statement about the lamb being born within 15 minutes of it first appearing at the vulva.  It is that quick in some breeds (eg Shetlands with Shetland lambs) but can take considerably longer in more meaty animals. 

My rule of thumb is that I want to see progress every 10-15 minutes, so once the toes have appeared I would want to check if there isn't more to see each time I look, or if she seems to have stopped trying for a continuous period of 15-20 minutes.

And you need to check that it's toes you can see, that they seem to be front legs (soles down), and that the nose appears shortly after the toes appear.  If there are no hooves, or if it's just one foot, or it's soles uppermost, or no nose appears following the toes, then you need to check her. 

If it's back legs (soles uppermost), get on and deliver immediately in case the lamb takes its first breath inside the birth canal.

If there is no nose following the toes, then the head may be bent back and not in the birth canal, so get lubed up, find the head and bring the nose down on top of the legs.

No hooves usually means either full breech - tail first, all legs pointing back into mum - which also needs urgent intervention as she cannot get the lamb out unassisted with this presentation, or it could be nose coming, legs back, and you need to get in and push the head back in and bring the legs forward quickly, before the head swells and it all gets much more difficult to do.

It is also fine if the sac doesn't rupture until the lamb is born, as long as the ewe (or you if she doesn't do it) breaks it as soon as the lamb hits the ground.  They don't need to breathe until the cord breaks, and the cord usually doesn't break until the ewe stands up / turns around.  When I assist a lambing, I don't pull the lamb away from her back end until I've cleared its nostrils, and if it's been a hard lambing I give the lamb and the ewe a moment to rest before pulling it to her nose (which usually breaks the cord.)  If she's a first-timer, I rub birth fluids over her nose so she has to lick her nose to clear them, and that usually triggers the instinct to lick the lamb clean.  While she is doing that, I check that both teats are working.