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Author Topic: Natural poultry health  (Read 2253 times)

Perris

  • Joined Mar 2017
  • Gower
Natural poultry health
« on: February 02, 2020, 04:23:58 pm »
This is a relatively recent (2011) comprehensive and academic study of natural substances' uses in poultry keeping that some may find useful. There are incidental references to other livestock but the focus is on poultry.  http://www.fyto-v.nl/docs/sb_poultry.pdf

Briggsy from Gower

  • Joined Nov 2018
Re: Natural poultry health
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2020, 08:57:36 am »
Well spotted Perris, a nice bit of bedtime reading!

I'm sure it all translates to ducks.

Thanks for posting.

arobwk

  • Joined Nov 2015
  • Kernow. Some say it's in England !
Re: Natural poultry health
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2020, 05:55:57 pm »
While I don't keep poultry, I read such stuff (thanks Perris) as I like to see, in particular, what plants have been found to offer various medicinal/health benefits. 

That aside, I see diatomaceous earth (DE), aka diatomite, is mentioned in the linked paper as an aid to treating both endo- and ecto-parasites. 

I asked about this here recently. (That was probably in the thread that I have since removed ! - I think it was Fleecewife who replied saying she had not considered DE as an endo- treatment for her chickens.)
The paper suggests it is OK to add DE to poultry feed, but the paper does not mention the different grades of DE.

There is fresh-water DE (normally whitish and normally offered as food grade) and ocean DE (normally verging towards camel colour and normally offered as non-food grade - seemingly this is because ocean DE can contain higher %age of heavy metals).  To note I do not know whether it is OK to use non-food grade DE for the occasional (rather than routine) internal parasite treatment of animals, but, if you are interested, you might wish to do some more research and/or ask your vet.

I'm still foxed though:  'tis said that DE will not work as an ecto- insecticide if it is wet, yet it is supposed to affect endo-parasites in the gut !!  How does that work then ?

[I can vouch for the fact that DE is a very effective (dry) ecto- insecticide so don't use where beneficial insects will also come into contact:  this will be most important as regards dusting of any plants attracting any sort of bees as they could end up making it back to hive/nest/burrow carrying DE on them with further impact !!]
« Last Edit: February 03, 2020, 09:44:34 pm by arobwk »

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
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Re: Natural poultry health
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2020, 09:05:25 pm »
I can't see how it works internally either.  The way it works is that it sucks liquid from the parasites and they die of dehydration.
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

Dan

  • The Accidental Smallholder
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Re: Natural poultry health
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2020, 08:52:07 am »
I'm still foxed though:  'tis said that DE will not work as an ecto- insecticide if it is wet, yet it is supposed to affect endo-parasites in the gut !!  How does that work then ?

It impacts external parasites like red mite as a dessicant, and like you we can vouch for its efficacy. For internal parasites like worms it maybe acts as a coagulant, not digeted by the host but ingested by the parasite? That's a total guess by the way, I know absolutely nothing about these things!  :D

arobwk

  • Joined Nov 2015
  • Kernow. Some say it's in England !
Re: Natural poultry health
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2020, 08:56:08 pm »
That was food for thought Dan, but unfortunately some related web searches drew a blank.

Loads of different/contradictory research results as regards endo- use of DE.
Who knows, but food/feed grade DE seems to do no harm (unless inhaled in large quantities or over prolonged periods) so, if anyone has some for ecto- use, might be worth trying for your flock's/herd's internal parasites also.

(I haven't worked out whether there is a difference between "food-grade" and "feed-grade", but, if I was tempted to try ingesting it for my own personal health, I know which advertised product I would go for !!)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 09:03:10 pm by arobwk »

Steph Hen

  • Joined Jul 2013
  • Angus Scotland.
Re: Natural poultry health
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2020, 08:04:32 am »
I have read that it works in the same way whether wet or dry, inside or out, the sharp surfaces cut the exoskeleton and cause death of parasites, either dehydration or insides leaking out.

There were lots of people wondering if it also kills beneficial gut bacteria, apparantly it wouldn't kill bacteria as they're too small.

There are warnings on the packet and on web about avoiding dust, or inhalation, as it'll cause irritation. Recommended to dampen it on food or water before used internally.

arobwk

  • Joined Nov 2015
  • Kernow. Some say it's in England !
Re: Natural poultry health
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2020, 06:48:19 pm »
I have read that it works in the same way whether wet or dry, inside or out, the sharp surfaces cut the exoskeleton and cause death of parasites, either dehydration or insides leaking out. .....


Can you recall @Steph Hen where you read that ?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 08:17:58 pm by arobwk »

Scarlet.Dragon

  • Joined May 2015
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: Natural poultry health
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2020, 11:25:01 am »
I've read the same thing in multiple articles on Google, although I don't recall any original scientific source for the claims.  However, I thought this was an interesting summary from one US study... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21673156

There are loads of others if you look for them proving everything from complete success to total failure!  To some extent you may need to not only look at the source of the research but also the funding for said research and any conflicts of interest etc too.
Excellence is the result of caring more than others think is wise, risking more than others think is safe, dreaming more than others think is practical and expecting more than others think is possible.

arobwk

  • Joined Nov 2015
  • Kernow. Some say it's in England !
Re: Natural poultry health
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2020, 11:30:23 pm »
As you say @Scarlet.Dragon there are many contradictory studies (for poultry and other stock).  All very confusing/inconclusive. 
However, I have found other studies suggesting the same as your linked study on poultry, which is that internal use of DE seems to have several general health/production benefits. 
I very recently came across some thoughts on this, but unfortunately have mislaid the link:  in summary it suggested that DE can/might alter digestive-system conditions in a way that some parasites can no longer survive (rather than kill parasites directly) and that DE can also offer nutrient boosts (as it is a natural product containing clays etc).

As regards whether DE works as an ecto- insecticide when wet, I'm going to have try my own experiment next time I can gather up some insect pests (some Giant Willow Aphids or Willow Beetles perhaps) and put into a jar containing very wet DE - if walking over wet DE does them in then I shall have a little more faith in it's use (for example) as a treatment for potting mediums against pest larvae and potentially against nematodes too.
However, while I have repeatedly read that DE does not affect earth worms due to their anatomy, I'm not sure what the difference is between earthworm anatomy and nematode anatomy !?  And, of course, many types of nematode are actually beneficial as a pest control (there's never an easy answer) so some more research on that matter to come.

I'd still like to know if anyone can point me to evidence that DE works as an insecticidal "desiccant" when wet whether applied externally or internally.

Steph Hen

  • Joined Jul 2013
  • Angus Scotland.
Re: Natural poultry health
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2020, 07:46:12 am »
Sorry it was years ago and I’ve no idea now :-(

Scarlet.Dragon

  • Joined May 2015
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: Natural poultry health
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2020, 01:00:09 am »
I also have to wonder if there are "other elements" involved... maybe the type of person likely to feed DE or Epsom Salts or any of the other myriad of "herbals" are more likely to be organic, more likely to have species rich ground, more likely to use well water over mains etc that could also be a factor in relation to livestock health.  Presumably the tests are carried out under lab conditions and therefore the base stock is identical and the ground their kept on identical and the feeding is identical except for the DE - but you have to wonder if that's really the case.

If it does no harm and is part of a rich and varied diet that the animals can access if they choose to, then perhaps it helps them stay well in themselves which will also enable them to fight the parasites more effectively than if they're run down.
Excellence is the result of caring more than others think is wise, risking more than others think is safe, dreaming more than others think is practical and expecting more than others think is possible.

landroverroy

  • Joined Oct 2010
Re: Natural poultry health
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2020, 10:02:48 am »
Well I did once add DE to my dogs' food for about a month. Not because I knew they had worms, but just because I worm them every now and then anyway. I noticed that their coats became softer. This could have been the worming effect of DE, or it could be because of the addition of some trace elements in it that are not normally in their food. Similarly, any apparent worming effect found in animals could be caused by a health improvement caused by additional trace elements which rendered the animals more able to resist the worms. So many variables that without proper documented experiments make it difficult to form an accurate judgement. 
Rules are made:
  for the guidance of wise men
  and the obedience of fools.

 

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