[arobwk]

.... I am not anti meat eating per sei, i am anti the alien way this world has turned food production into something corrupt and unsustainable ( and i include farming of the worlds vegetables in that statement too).

I don't think many of us, actually, are that far apart in our views about the way our food should be produced, i.e. more sustainably! 

[macgro7]

Wonder if vegans have a problem with us keeping (working) bees for honey and also pollinating their plants? 

Some actually do have problems with that. I heard of that since time ago.
That's how silly it's gone.
I got raised eyebrows several times when I suggested I want to get an electric fence to protect my hens from foxes - people thought its cruel for the hens and for foxes. Amazing how detached people are nowadays from what is actually real life.
No one used to bother with such silly issues back in the days because they new if you want fertilizer for your veggies you to have a cow. If you want your children to survive the winter and have enough vitamins you need a cow and vegetables. If you want nice dinner, for special occasions at least you need to slaughter a chicken or a cute lamb. Everyone used to do that. Nowadays people who think it's normal are looked at as of they are criminals.
The whole world has gone upside down.

[messyhoose]

macgro what you say is absolutely true which is why i find most eaters to be utter hypocrits- as a vegan i have actually killed more animals than prob any of my meat eating friends (they cant bear the idea of an animals being killed and would rather put their fingers in their ears and let someone else be responsible for the dirty side of their food production). I have humanely killed dying pet chickens, pet rats, a squirrel, a hedgehog (both road casualties- not my fault) and rabbit with myxy.
So please everyone stop slating ethical vegans (not the ones just doing it for a fad). Most of us know exactly how food is produced,  and are not sofa surfing middle class townies as would like to be portrayed. Indeed we spend a lot of our spare time researching and getting out facts right (and i worked in farming to be sure i knew what was what) . True there will be some who "go overboard" but it is understandable when you consider they are getting emotional about animals lives.
Sure if every meat eater i met said they would happily go and kill an animal to meet their dietary needs then id say good on you. But instead just today i witness an undercover video of abattoir workers and their deplorable and heinous behaviour towards the sheep they were stunning and slaughtering, and my belief that animal farming has gone totally upside down is confirmed-  its not a lie, a media whipped up story- it is visual evidence that workers had no concern for the welfare of these sheep prior to slaughter. When atrocities like this are finally wiped out- then do talk to me again about which of us has the wrong illusion about animal farming
"

[Steph Hen]

I wish my family would only eat animals we've been responsible for and killed. I don't really like buying meat from anywhere else as it feels like passing the buck. One Day.

Had an interesting chat the other day;

"I could never kill an animal but I think it's fine to eat meat from a shop; as much as you want, if you've got the money. But I am completely against hunting or killing for sport or pleasure of any kind."

This feels hypocritical to me on a couple of counts. Is gluttony indulgence in pleasure? Cognative dissidence, if that's how it's spelt. I'm not sure the point at which want becomes need. Sure I know some unhealthy vegans and vegetarians but I know far more unhealthy omnivores.

I'm pretty sure less will save the plannet. I read it in Dave Goulson's latest book on wildlife gardening recently. I've said this for ages; just bit less food, less driving, less and fewer. I don't think we need dietary products or gyms to lose weight, just less. Nor all these different apples in every supmarket, grown from round the world, or all the clothes or any of it. Less would save the planet, not quorum or vertical farming, but it won't make money.



 

[harmony]

Sure if every meat eater i met said they would happily go and kill an animal to meet their dietary needs then id say good on you. But instead just today i witness an undercover video of abattoir workers and their deplorable and heinous behaviour towards the sheep they were stunning and slaughtering, and my belief that animal farming has gone totally upside down is confirmed-  its not a lie, a media whipped up story- it is visual evidence that workers had no concern for the welfare of these sheep prior to slaughter. When atrocities like this are finally wiped out- then do talk to me again about which of us has the wrong illusion about animal farming
"

Animal cruelty should not be tolerated but not all slaughter houses have poor standards. Should all pet dogs be banned because some people treat their pets cruelly?

[Alex_]

Most of us on TAS are well-rehearsed in the arguments for extensive, pasture-fed meat and dairy, and as frustrated as I am that there seems to be no realistic recipe for sustainable veganism in the UK - but that doesn't stop the spread of it.

What are the arguments for pasture fed meat and dairy?
How will grassland save the world?

I am not a vegan although recently i have started reducing meat levels to feel like i am doing something for the environment and i tried the vegan KFC burger and thought it was great. I have been raising my own meat for a few years now and would love to raise all my own meat but that's not an option for me because i do not have much space.

[macgro7]

Most of us on TAS are well-rehearsed in the arguments for extensive, pasture-fed meat and dairy, and as frustrated as I am that there seems to be no realistic recipe for sustainable veganism in the UK - but that doesn't stop the spread of it.

What are the arguments for pasture fed meat and dairy?
How will grassland save the world?

I am not a vegan although recently i have started reducing meat levels to feel like i am doing something for the environment and i tried the vegan KFC burger and thought it was great. I have been raising my own meat for a few years now and would love to raise all my own meat but that's not an option for me because i do not have much space.

It's very simple actually - when the grass grows 10 inches tall the roots also grow around 10 inches. When the cow eats 7 inches from the top - 7 inches of the roots will die of and stay in the soil as carbon - fixed from the atmosphere. Your cow will then poo on the grass this fertilizing the soil even more with mass of nutrients and nitrogen.
When you plough a field to grow maize for silage you realise a massive amount of nitrogen and carbon from soil into the atmosphere. You use a lot of fossil fuel, water, artificial fertilizers etc. And cows could do all the job for you and still FIX the carbon and nitrogen instead if realising it.

[messyhoose]

harmony- yes a vegan would say better a world without pet dogs than a world of animal sanctuaries full to the rafters with mistreated and abandoned dogs (which is where we currently stand- i worked in a dog shelter for a while too- no life for a dog)
so by your arguement there are many bad things but because its not ALL bad we can just forget about it then?- Yes i do believe banning is the ultimate solution. But as i have said to many extreme vegans (we have fb forums too) i said the chances of making the world vegan in the next hundred years are slim to 0% whereas the chance of making a difference to farm animals lives right now in campaigning for better conditions- not outright demanding a ban is very high indeed. So, among other issues, i will continue to highlight the terrible things that happen in slaughterhouses- campaigning for mandatory cctv which can be independently inspected is a start (coming soon to Scotland- come on the rest of the UK!). Our animal welfare laws say a farm animals welfare should be assured up to the point of slaughter. If they had been my sheep i would be outraged that i had done everything to give them the best quality of life only for them to be abused and tortured by the abbatoir staff before finally being dead. Surely high welfare meat (eg smallholders animals) means at all stages of production?

[harmony]

I am not a vegan although recently i have started reducing meat levels to feel like i am doing something for the environment

Is there not a big difference between feeling like and knowing you are doing something for the environment?

[harmony]

harmony- yes a vegan would say better a world without pet dogs than a world of animal sanctuaries full to the rafters with mistreated and abandoned dogs (which is where we currently stand- i worked in a dog shelter for a while too- no life for a dog)
so by your arguement there are many bad things but because its not ALL bad we can just forget about it then?- Yes i do believe banning is the ultimate solution. But as i have said to many extreme vegans (we have fb forums too) i said the chances of making the world vegan in the next hundred years are slim to 0% whereas the chance of making a difference to farm animals lives right now in campaigning for better conditions- not outright demanding a ban is very high indeed. So, among other issues, i will continue to highlight the terrible things that happen in slaughterhouses- campaigning for mandatory cctv which can be independently inspected is a start (coming soon to Scotland- come on the rest of the UK!). Our animal welfare laws say a farm animals welfare should be assured up to the point of slaughter. If they had been my sheep i would be outraged that i had done everything to give them the best quality of life only for them to be abused and tortured by the abbatoir staff before finally being dead. Surely high welfare meat (eg smallholders animals) means at all stages of production?

Is the world full of sanctuaries? I don't think so. There are far less animals in sanctuaries than live in peoples homes. No, I don't believe we should ignore the bad things. I just don't think we ban everything because some people fall below expectation. I think we improve standards. I too would have been outraged if they were my sheep.

[messyhoose]

harmony you misread me. that happens a lot on internet i find. i said a world .....of sanctuaries that are full to the rafters- and nearly every sanctuary i have been involved with had issues with accepting more than they can acommodate. so i know i am correct.

[harmony]

harmony you misread me. that happens a lot on internet i find. i said a world .....of sanctuaries that are full to the rafters- and nearly every sanctuary i have been involved with had issues with accepting more than they can acommodate. so i know i am correct.

Yes, you are right I did misread and you did not use the word "full". And yes, it happens a lot on the internet. However I see little difference between " a world of" and a "world full of" because there are still more animals in peoples homes than in sanctuaries. I don't disagree that sanctuaries get full but also the reasons for animals being in there isn't always cruelty.

[SallyintNorth]

If they had been my sheep i would be outraged that i had done everything to give them the best quality of life only for them to be abused and tortured by the abbatoir staff before finally being dead. Surely high welfare meat (eg smallholders animals) means at all stages of production?

Everyone - farmer, smallholder, whoever - would have been outraged.  Why would you think they weren't?

[messyhoose]

sally in the north- i never suggested they wouldnt, i was responding to a comment that as not all slaughterhouses commit such acts that banning was not necessary (which i as did not suggest- i am a pragmatist and believe in achieveable goals).
The origin of these comments (which looks like it is a regular January topic- judging by last years forum) is asking if veganism is a danger to the planet. Simple answer no, but i can not back that up right here. But the science all says humans should eat less meat and dairy- the result of which would be less intensification of animal farming, and a chance then to have (but no necessarily so i know) better animal welfare. You only have to look at the feedlots in the US to see how animals have just become numbers not individuals capable of suffering.
It is these unfathomable problems that make people turn vegan- in the end we just turn our back on all animal farming because the bad stuff is intolerable and we feel helpless in being able to do anything to improve things.
You have all hut a nerve here as i am generally trying to be the voice of reason on both sides of the arguement- telling vegans that an entire ban on all animal keeping is not on the cards any time soon, but that campaigning to get conditions improved is a step towards better quality of life for animals. I then turn to you lot- small scale animal keepers, prob have names for them all, giving them the best life, and say that is what it should be but the majority of animal agriulture to supply the human race is not reared like that.
Old school vegans prob didnt become vegan to save the planet- it is just comes as an added bonus to the cause.

[harmony]

Messyhoose you certainly did say that you "believe banning is the ultimate solution". So, banning what? s