The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: SallyintNorth on January 18, 2020, 10:03:37 am

Title: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 18, 2020, 10:03:37 am
I've put this under "Sheep" as that is our most active livestock board.  I'm happy for the thread to be moved elsewhere if the mods think there's a more suitable board.

I'm sure I am not the only livestock-keeper who is unsettled by the continuing rise in vegansim, and the increasing levels of extremist hype and activism associated with it.

Most of us on TAS are well-rehearsed in the arguments for extensive, pasture-fed meat and dairy, and as frustrated as I am that there seems to be no realistic recipe for sustainable veganism in the UK - but that doesn't stop the spread of it.

Reports of activists "saving" piglets by "releasing them into the wild" make me fear for such livestock, many of whom are now unsuited to undomesticated living.  Attacks on farmers and their steadings are thankfully rare, but it is a concern that these could increase if the activism continues to become more militant. 

I suspect that many of us thought it was a fad, and like all fashions, it would be ousted by the next big thing.  It is becoming more and more mainstream, however, and, bolstered by people feeling that going vegan is something they can do to help the planet, its growth seems at present to be unstoppable.

Of course I am not objective, of course I do not want livestock farming - and livestock - to become a thing of the past.  But I believe myself to be someone who would not put personal interests ahead of the global good, and until I can believe in an alternative model for the UK, which delivers a plant-based diet sustainably, I remain very concerned that lots of very well-meaning people, by turning vegan in the UK, are in fact creating an increased environmental risk.

I chip away on Facebook, adding factual content where I can, and asking questions, trying to be unemotive but factual, trying to open up the conversation.  Very occasionally I see a moderation in someone's stance, and feel I have got the point across to at least one person - but I am feeling a bit like Canute...  And in truth, I don't speak up any and everywhere, only on threads of friends who I know to be reasonable people. 

Factors which make it so hard include :


And, possibly most significantly,


I am wracking my brains trying to fathom how to reach people who have bought into the hype, and am getting nowhere.

Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Steph Hen on January 18, 2020, 11:56:46 am
The vegan movement has good points and bad points, but either way it’s here to get bigger. -I know it’s only some tiny proportion of the market share but with the backing from big pharma and the way of the world, it’ll definitely get bigger.

A lot of animal farming is cruel and harms the environment. There are alternatives, perhaps forest pastures or diverse swords, with animals suited to the environment, living extensively and organically.

But at the moment there are systems where animals spend lots of time indoors, eating and living in what I’d still describe as factory farming type conditions. 

Taking animals off their mothers at a young age is harsh, calf at foot dairies sound much nicer. Hatching all these chicks, sexing on conveyor belts and culling all the males doesn’t sit well with me nor most people who think about it.

Our pets are almost worshipped ‘fur babies’ and their deaths are greatly mourned. This is the animal experience of most people, reinforced by Disney’s talking animals. One day they wonder if the cow that made the burger was any any less important or sentient than their bunny and realise the hypocrisy.

I am aware that grass may just save the planet and that vegetable farming is very hard on the soil. Without good soil there’s nothing sustainable. Veganism as is isn’t any better at the moment.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 18, 2020, 12:11:10 pm
I should have clarified that I think anything which improves animal welfare is to be applauded, and that my preference would be massively less intensive livestock farming, a much better balance between extensively-farmed meat and dairy, sustainably-grown plant-based foods and farming for the environment.  Less meat and dairy in our diet, but a much higher proportion of that which we do eat from extensively-farmed animals.

I don't know enough about how things could work in the US to comment on whether veganism could be the environmentally correct choice there.  But I do know a lot about farming and land in the UK, and I am worried we might follow - are following - a lead which doesn't apply here, and are in danger of harming our own environment and being a net drain on world resources, when in fact we could probably feed ourselves sustainably within our own boundaries if we went about it correctly.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 18, 2020, 12:18:14 pm
Another factor which concerns me greatly is putting ourselves in the position of being reliant on imported food.  It seems to me that vast swathes of our countryside is most suited to growing grass, and hence the foods in which it is easiest for us to be self-sufficient are meat from grazing animals, and dairy.  If we decimate those industries, we will not be able to meet our dietary or nutritional needs from within our own borders.  That would make us very ripe for invasion and take over - and that prospect no longer seems fanciful or ludicrous, as it did 20 years ago.   :'(
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Fleecewife on January 18, 2020, 01:06:49 pm
Let's remember that it's not just veganism v meat eaters.  There's vegetarianism in there, as well as all the latest labelling fads of piscitarians, flexitarians, probably more.  To my mind, vegetarians just get on with their lives and don't get in anybody's face, but vegans seem very militant and I prefer to avoid that.


Factually, the vegan proposition that all pastureland should be ploughed up and used to grow crops is both ridiculous, given how varied soils and local climates are, and downright dangerous re climate change.  Pastures, bogs, moorland, grassland, scrub all sequester carbon just as well as trees, including the Amazon rain forest, sometimes even better.  To plough it up would release unbelievably large amounts of carbon into the atmosphere.  We still seem to be stuck at 'plant more trees' where we should be thinking of maintaining the natural vegetation that we have in good condition.  Yes, plant more trees, but do so on ground which has been previously spoiled, rather than spoiling established ecosystems to replace them with trees. There have been so many attempts to do the right thing without a full understanding of what is best - this plant a tree thing, left unqualified, could be a huge cock-up.


Then think about it.  So you plough up all the pastureland and ban meat production.  You then have a population of ex farmers who have not the first clue of how to run a business growing food crops.  Gone is all their expensive big machinery, but to produce food on a scale large enough to feed 7.7 billion (and growing) vegans they will need new and different machinery, using up more raw materials and energy to make and distribute them.  Without animals there will be only human manure to fertilise those crops, with it's scrumptious burden of pathogens and parasites.
The claim has been made that if everyone in the world was vegan, that there is land enough to feed us all, there is land enough to feed to extra 2 billion yet to come.  BUT in fact, we don't manage to feed those 7.7 billion people adequately as it is now, because of problems like inequality of income, poor transport, poor distribution, wars, crime and corruption.  And then there is food wastage, which is much worse in the vegetable sector than the meat sector.  I don't have the actual figures to hand, but overall, something approaching half of the food produced in the world is wasted or lost somewhere in the system.  Before we try to feed 7.7 billion vegans, we need to solve these matters.


I haven't mentioned US style feedlot meat raising systems because I think we in Britain must be agreed on that?


Do I think veganism is a threat to the Planet?  A threat yes, but I don't think veganism alone will destroy the Planet.  The only threat to our Planet, beyond the usual comets off-course, is us, humanity.  Until that is acknowledged we don't have a chance of saving our world as it is.  The earth will survive, but we won't, vegan or carnivorous.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: landroverroy on January 18, 2020, 01:50:12 pm
I personally couldn't care less about veganism, any more than I care about Sharia law, or people that believe the world is flat. (Yes some still do!)
The world is full of people with different opinions. I may believe they are wrong, but I still respect their right to their opinion.


But it seems to me that vegans' views are being spread predominantly by people that don't share their opinions! (Look at the amount of discussion on here!) I go on various livestock forums and am forever seeing them repost some further crap or stupid actions perpetrated by vegans.  If they were just ignored they would not have half so much influence and their views would be mainly spread amongst themselves and not publicised worldwide.


There always have been and always will be extremist groups. But nature finds its own equilibrium and I believe if we stop giving them such efficient publicity - which must be beyond their wildest dreams - that they too will shrink to a manageable level or these extreme beliefs will die a natural death.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: harmony on January 18, 2020, 02:44:56 pm

I think that the gap between the people who derive their protein from meat as opposed to alternatives is something like 54% and 46% and it is estimated the gap will close over the next ten years to more like 50/50 so a long way to go to get us all giving up meat.


I think that more people will give up eating as much meat not because of veganism or vegetarianism but cost. The days of meat and two veg dinners has been declining for a long time and people eat a more varied diet these days.



Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: arobwk on January 18, 2020, 04:35:37 pm
 I reckon veganism gets far too much “air time”.
If folk prefer not to eat animals or use/wear animal by-products due to personal ethics or religion, good for them:  I don’t mind.
What I do mind is having veganism stuffed down my throat (so to speak) as the answer to all world ills (OK, OK – so I’m stretching things a bit!).
Leaving aside the industrial scale production of stuff like quorn (which I frequently eat) or “laboratory” grown animal flesh, animal husbandry (or hunting/fishing) for meat will be the only sustainable way to generate food from some environments. AND, when world social order finally breaks down, I should like to think that our descendants will know what a “meat” animal looks like and what to do with it if they are lucky enough to come across one !!
 
(While I’m posting:  I don’t hear much debate about vegans’ use of plastics, derived from fossil fuels driving climate change, or of cotton which is a very resource-hungry product.  Also, there is some research that suggests that plants can produce methane - by no means yet proven - and that rice paddy fields might not have a clean bill of health either, methane-wise.  We almost certainly have so very much more yet to learn about how to sustain billions of humans along with the planet.  In the meantime, locally produced - UK & Eire - meat & veg will both remain the key part of my diet as I am anxious to do my bit for the planet !)
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: PipKelpy on January 18, 2020, 07:13:24 pm

While I’m posting:  I don’t hear much debate about vegans’ use of plastics, derived from fossil fuels driving climate change, or of cotton which is a very resource-hungry product.

Finally!! Someone who thinks like I do with regards to vegan alternatives!!

One thing that NO vegan has ever answered (I did post the question in the local rag 'Shropshire Star' many moons ago and a sarky comment came back along the lines, "Typical meat eater question!!")

If the entire planet were to suddenly go meat free, what would vegans suggest we do with the animals??

If they had their way, NO animals would ever be destroyed for food, fur, skin, glue, dog food etc. So what would you do with them?

Probably like some folk on this forum, smallholding for me is a lifestyle (I've lived here all my life) it doesn't mean that I have money. The few sheep that I have, now down to 8 with only 3 lambing this year (2 weren't interested in the tup, 2, I won't lamb and 1's a wether), is a small enough number to stay here for the foreseeable future (1 in particular lived in the house for 7 months so she'll be here for life!) But, they still have costs. I can escape certain vet bills as I treat homoeopathically. The cattle numbers have gone from 4, (December 2018, Cow with 8 month weanling, bulling heifer, 6 week old rearing heifer calf (Mary Moo!), to 7 (today, - Cow with 8 month weanling, weaned weanling, 14month bawling heifer (Mary Moo!) 10 month heifer for bulling later this year and 2 week calved Knickers and her lad Eddie!)

And yes, I am attached to my cattle.

So, if we all went meat free, what do I do with my animals. As said above, sheep numbers are low enough, I don't have a tup on the place, so yes, I could never lamb them again and they all live here until they decide to kark it.

Cattle however, are very much different and this is where the problem lies and NO vegan seems to understand this!

Female cattle come bulling every 17 days. Some are very VERY vocal about it. (Mary!!) Some are quiet and its shear guess work! (Juniper and it appears also Jennifer. Must be a family  thing!!) And others are very "Hiya mum!!" Wink wink, nod nod! Knickers!! Trust me when I say, she's not the type to turn your back on when she's up for it!!

So, sniggering aside, if we don't breed these animals and don't cull these animals, what are we to do with them? I am very much aware that some farmers will not castrate the bulls when they are calves so they let them go out on the place and mix in with the heifers. Auctions are having to sort out the arguments when unsuspecting farmers are buying in heifers for fattening only to find them bagging up as the animal is in calf.

And that's animals going for the chop.

Cattle need feeding and the honest truth is as much as I like my cattle, I cannot afford to have 4 females here and NOT breed them. Not when they will be coming bulling every 3 weeks and basically be dangerous and frisky through no fault of their own.

If my cattle are like that, then surely worldwide they are. Its hormones and its nature. If these animals are NOT culled then they maul the heifers (the bulls that is) and they will continue to breed. The planet will be overrun with cattle and sheep even more than it is now. Pigs? Don't pigs come into season once they've weaned their litters?

Do vegans suggest mass culling of rabbits and other wildlife or is it only farm livestock?

"While I’m posting:  I don’t hear much debate about vegans’ use of plastics, derived from fossil fuels driving climate change, or of cotton which is a very resource-hungry product."

I suppose where I am, I'm living in la la land with regards to thinking grow your own (looked on the garden and could weep at my brassicas!!). How many vegans though in this country, ONLY survive on food grown in this country?

One of the main arguments about Veganism this time round (it usually happens after every Christmas) is to do with the latest on climate change, fair enough. I apologise if I'm going off target!! However, similar to the "what to do with all the animals comment of mine", with regards to climate change, rather than blame the animals (mind you, Juniper belches like a trooper!!, though my one dog farts too so she could be blamed aswell!) why don't they blame the real reason, US!!

Blaming the animals is easy, but its not their fault. It's US. There are too many of us on this planet. The demand for meat, and if you see in the shops, the good cuts too. Personally I prefer brisket over topside. Due to this demand faster growing breeds have taken over from the slower growing breeds. We once bought in a dexter butchered and the chap said you'll never taste anything as good. I did actually, a Brown Swiss that I took to 29 month old. He was castrated as a calf but when he went the hump had come on his neck and the abbatoir thought he was a bull. He was actually some of the tastiest beef I have ever eaten. Thats the 29 month age! Now a days beef is bright red in the shops and thats what, 14 month old?? We once ate a joint out of the freezer, Pesky, was done in 2004 and this was 2010. Rather freezer burnt, but I cut it all off and then wacked it in the oven. Wow! Melt in the mouth!

So, Veganism - if we were meant to eat grass we wouldnt have been given wisdom teeth!! Evolution for you. I still got one, its impacted. Dentist has said "look after it, if it ever has to come out, its a hospital job!!"

2 Final points -

1 - There was a program on tv a few weeks ago and my sister admitted that if it weren't for the fact she knows where her meat came from, she would give it up as it upset her knowing how some producers treat their animals considering that they are going for meat. If my sister can think this and she sees her future meals out of her window, you can understand why those who don't have these picturesque views stop eating meat!

2 -  I know of a young teenager, a vegetarian who has recently become a vegan. Why? Because whilst she was on holiday, she ate the national dish of that country. Guinea Pig!! Her friends were disgusted as guinea pigs are pets - hence now a vegan!! Don't the Chinese eat dogs??

Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: sheeponthebrain on January 18, 2020, 08:16:04 pm
if it is morraly wrong for a vegan to eat truffles found by working pigs.  then is it also 'vegan' morraly wrong for a working rescue dog to save survivors of earthquakes???

just a thought
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: alang on January 18, 2020, 09:23:30 pm
Wonder if vegans have a problem with us keeping (working) bees for honey and also pollinating their plants?  :innocent:
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Old Shep on January 18, 2020, 10:27:13 pm
Ooh Sally you're leaving no stone unturned!


I dont have a problem with non slaughter holdings if the stock are well looked after.  But what happens when the stock is old? Is it kinder to send to the abattoir or keep in poor health till they drop dead? A conversation me and my son have regularly with the old favoutite ewes.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 18, 2020, 11:13:16 pm
I am not personally aware of any such operation where the animals are ill-cared for or whose existence is prolonged beyond what is humane.  And I believe that all the setups I know personally do use the vet as and when needed.  One does of course hear of places where these things are not true, but I do not have any personal connection to any such.

I think that in this context, "slaughter-free" means that the animals are not slaughtered for meat; it does not imply that they are kept alive beyond the point where they have quality of life.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 18, 2020, 11:32:48 pm
if it is morraly wrong for a vegan to eat truffles found by working pigs.  then is it also 'vegan' morraly wrong for a working rescue dog to save survivors of earthquakes???

just a thought

pukka old school vegans - yes. The modern lot?  Who knows?!
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 18, 2020, 11:34:03 pm
Wonder if vegans have a problem with us keeping (working) bees for honey and also pollinating their plants?  :innocent:

They do.  They believe that there are plenty of pollinating insects doing their thing without human intervention, and that farming bees for honey is morally wrong.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Fleecewife on January 18, 2020, 11:41:13 pm
Wonder if vegans have a problem with us keeping (working) bees for honey and also pollinating their plants?  :innocent:

They do.  They believe that there are plenty of pollinating insects doing their thing without human intervention, and that farming bees for honey is morally wrong.


Actually I agree with that.  I have never kept hive bees and I have never collected any honey.  I do eat it though after others have collected it  :roflanim:   The real reason for that is that for most of my life honey bees have given me the creeps, although I have taught myself to love them now.  Instead of keeping captive bees, we provide an environment where wild bees can prosper.
When I posed this question somewhereorother I was told that vegans are quite happy to keep hive bees because what they are doing is their natural behaviour.  I don't remember there being a comment on the stealing on their honey and replacing it with man-made stuff.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 18, 2020, 11:55:53 pm
I'm no expert in honey bee-keeping, but i understand that it is highly interventional.  Beef cattle have a much easier life ;) 

I joined the local Bee Club when i got an allotment, thinking I'd need the bees for pollination.  I learned in one evening that it is complex, time-consuming and a commitment, that bees travel up to 3km from the hive, and that the secretary of the local Bee Club had 50,000 bees within 3km of my allotment - so I never bothered to go again, and I never got my own bees!  lol
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: harmony on January 19, 2020, 12:11:15 am
Wonder if vegans have a problem with us keeping (working) bees for honey and also pollinating their plants?  :innocent:

They do.  They believe that there are plenty of pollinating insects doing their thing without human intervention, and that farming bees for honey is morally wrong.


Actually I agree with that.  I have never kept hive bees and I have never collected any honey.  I do eat it though after others have collected it  :roflanim:   The real reason for that is that for most of my life honey bees have given me the creeps, although I have taught myself to love them now.  Instead of keeping captive bees, we provide an environment where wild bees can prosper.
When I posed this question somewhereorother I was told that vegans are quite happy to keep hive bees because what they are doing is their natural behaviour.  I don't remember there being a comment on the stealing on their honey and replacing it with man-made stuff.



I don't think you can describe honey bees as captive! There are beekeepers who don't take honey from their hives and don't practise swarm control. Unfortunately there are not many wild honey bees and the vast majority of the honey bee population survives because of beekeepers.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: harmony on January 19, 2020, 12:23:02 am
I'm no expert in honey bee-keeping, but i understand that it is highly interventional.  Beef cattle have a much easier life ;) 

I joined the local Bee Club when i got an allotment, thinking I'd need the bees for pollination.  I learned in one evening that it is complex, time-consuming and a commitment, that bees travel up to 3km from the hive, and that the secretary of the local Bee Club had 50,000 bees within 3km of my allotment - so I never bothered to go again, and I never got my own bees!  lol



I wouldn't describe beekeeping as highly interventional or agree honey bees have a harder life than a beef cow. I spend far less time with my bees than my pigs, sheep or horses. Yes, some times of the year they are more work than at other times but that can be said about other livestock. Any livestock is a commitment. They travel up to three miles from their hive not 3km and 50,000 bees represents just one hive at peak time and not all those will be flying bees. The beauty of honey bees is that they visit a broader selection of flowers/crops than other bee types so are super pollinators.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Fleecewife on January 19, 2020, 12:27:55 pm
Wonder if vegans have a problem with us keeping (working) bees for honey and also pollinating their plants?  :innocent:

They do.  They believe that there are plenty of pollinating insects doing their thing without human intervention, and that farming bees for honey is morally wrong.


Actually I agree with that.  I have never kept hive bees and I have never collected any honey.  I do eat it though after others have collected it  :roflanim:   The real reason for that is that for most of my life honey bees have given me the creeps, although I have taught myself to love them now.  Instead of keeping captive bees, we provide an environment where wild bees can prosper.
When I posed this question somewhereorother I was told that vegans are quite happy to keep hive bees because what they are doing is their natural behaviour.  I don't remember there being a comment on the stealing on their honey and replacing it with man-made stuff.



I don't think you can describe honey bees as captive! There are beekeepers who don't take honey from their hives and don't practise swarm control. Unfortunately there are not many wild honey bees and the vast majority of the honey bee population survives because of beekeepers.


There are a few wild honey bees, but the bees I support are the non-hive types, like mason bees, bumble bees, solitary bees, etc.  From the point of view of pollination, these bees are way ahead of honey bees in the numbers of flowers they can pollinate each - the honey bee advantage seems to be in their greater numbers locally where they are kept in hives, as long as their hives are moved to be near the crops.  So keeping hive bees is purely for them to be exploited for their honey and to make it convenient to crop it.  See how hard it is for the few populations of indigenous peoples who live in the wild, say in the Jungles of Borneo, or the Amazon forest, to collect honey from wild bees, nesting halfway up a jungle giant, and well able to defend their honey. No wonder bees were domesticated.
However, honey bees are not essential to the pollination of our food crops, as long as we have healthy populations of wild bees, butterflies, flies, hoverflies, (wind), and in some countries, fruit bats and humming birds.




ps - does anyone else find it annoying that whenever you type Amazon it is automatically set as a link to a certain large online company, as if the vast swathe of rain forest in South America is of no importance  :rant:


pps - it didn't do it that time!  I think I'm being watched  :coat:





Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: harmony on January 19, 2020, 03:23:48 pm

[size=100%]However, honey bees are not essential to the pollination of our food crops, as long as we have healthy populations of wild bees, butterflies, flies, hoverflies, (wind), and in some countries, fruit bats and humming birds.[/size][/color]


Do we not have a declining number of wild bees and insects in general?
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Fleecewife on January 19, 2020, 06:52:42 pm
[size=100%]However, honey bees are not essential to the pollination of our food crops, as long as we have healthy populations of wild bees, butterflies, flies, hoverflies, (wind), and in some countries, fruit bats and humming birds.[/size][/color]
Do we not have a declining number of wild bees and insects in general?


You know the answer to that of course, our populations of the insects etc I mentioned are not healthy.  The solution to that is wound up in many other issues such as Climate Change, the use of noxious chemicals in agriculture, changes in agricultural practices, the covering of previously bare soil with concrete and asphalt, the obsession with keeping gardens and roadsides 'tidy', even parasites and diseases of captive bees spreading to their wild cousins.  These issues apply to honey bees as well as wild pollinators.
Are you meaning that it's perfectly fine to replace our wild insect pollinator populations with honey bees?  I don't really see your point.  :bee: :bfly: :bee: :bfly: :bee:
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: harmony on January 19, 2020, 07:04:45 pm
My point was that we don't have a healthy population of bees and insects. Nor are there many wild honey bee colonies, so "captive" honey bees are important to pollination and no I wouldn't suggest our non captive insects are replaced by honey bees.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Steph Hen on January 19, 2020, 08:37:24 pm
The most 'pure' vegans believe we should exploit animals at all. They should not be eaten, killed, kept or used. No horse riding or pets or fishing. No honey, no leather jackets, Ivory piano keys, etc, etc.  What to do with the animals we have just now; stop breeding any more and allow these ones to live out their natural lives until it's unethical.

Whatever I think of these ideals, I'm still pretty impressed by the determination of these people to change their lives for their good intentions.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: harmony on January 19, 2020, 09:03:19 pm
Whatever I think of these ideals, I'm still pretty impressed by the determination of these people to change their lives for their good intentions.



It's their determination to change everyone else's lives to live by  their "good intentions" that those with a different set of good intentions struggle with.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: arobwk on January 19, 2020, 09:13:28 pm
Year 2070: 

"Ok team, put your harnesses on, we have 2 acres to plough today."
"Excuse me plough-person, but have you done the horsepower/"manpower" conversion calculation as I seem to think we could do with 50 of us for 2 acres per day rather than just us 4 !"
"Look, you all decided to not exploit animals in any way and to protect the environment and now there are no animals and, despite all our efforts on the CO2 front, the weather forecast says it's today or else.  So are you ready ... ?"
"What about the worms ?"
"... Pull"






Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: messyhoose on January 22, 2020, 02:05:45 am
crikey there has been a real explosion of anti veganism this year- when all the corporate groups are falling over themselves to offer vegan alternatives to their meat norms! Sorry- but environmentalistsn and ethnologists all concur with a rising human population that a non animal diet is both sustainable and ethical. Humans have gone well beyond the hunter gatherer- indeed more of the population has nothing whatsoever to do with the production of the foods they rely on. This is not natural. So dont condone veganism for being as such- until you get omnivores to be more in tune with their food sources do not ridicule vegans for being opposed to it. Veganism is not a threat to the planet, humans and their capacity to embrace unnatural processes, and be in denial of natural processes- are.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: harmony on January 22, 2020, 10:03:00 am
crikey there has been a real explosion of anti veganism this year- when all the corporate groups are falling over themselves to offer vegan alternatives to their meat norms! Sorry- but environmentalistsn and ethnologists all concur with a rising human population that a non animal diet is both sustainable and ethical. Humans have gone well beyond the hunter gatherer- indeed more of the population has nothing whatsoever to do with the production of the foods they rely on. This is not natural. So dont condone veganism for being as such- until you get omnivores to be more in tune with their food sources do not ridicule vegans for being opposed to it. Veganism is not a threat to the planet, humans and their capacity to embrace unnatural processes, and be in denial of natural processes- are.



Crikey who's condoning and being anti anything? Has there been a rise in anti veganism or a rise in social/media coverage about the issue? I raise my own meat but I don't eat meat every day. Data shows that lots of people eat less meat for health and cost reasons and that trend is likely to continue.  Meat used to be a luxury. People who eat meat don't tell other people they have to in the same way some vegans/vegetarians push their ideals. Putting it another way is it more acceptable to be an anti meat eater than an anti vegan/vegetarian because some of the anti meat eaters are pretty extreme in their views and actions?
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: arobwk on January 22, 2020, 04:21:18 pm
crikey there has been a real explosion of anti veganism this year- when all the corporate groups are falling over themselves to offer vegan alternatives to their meat norms! Sorry- but environmentalistsn and ethnologists all concur with a rising human population that a non animal diet is both sustainable and ethical. Humans have gone well beyond the hunter gatherer- indeed more of the population has nothing whatsoever to do with the production of the foods they rely on. This is not natural. So dont condone veganism for being as such- until you get omnivores to be more in tune with their food sources do not ridicule vegans for being opposed to it. Veganism is not a threat to the planet, humans and their capacity to embrace unnatural processes, and be in denial of natural processes- are.


[member=174828]messyhoose[/member] - I was most interested by your starter remark about "explosion of anti-veganism this year".  I had genuinely not realized there was such a reaction to recent "advertising" of a vegan diet - could you offer examples you've come across please (leaving aside forum members remarks so far) ?  I would really be interested in your analysis.

However, my tongue-in-cheek scenario at Reply #26 (which I could have done better, but won't bother to amend) does, I believe, point to a part of the problem.   The world might well be able to sustain ever growing billions of people on a vegetable diet, but not without mechanical or draught animal assistance:  without productive multipliers (draught animals/tractors), I suspect the world's population cannot/could not be sustained by human labour alone.
And then, if a sheep (for example) will prosper on land where a field of wheat would fail, how best to use that land to feed the ever growing number of humans across the world. It is just so obvious to me. 
As some other omnivorous TAS members and I have already "admitted to", we are making a measured move away from a meat-intensive diet, but unlikely to ever go fully vegetarian and even less likely to go vegan.  I believe I am safe in saying that veganism is not the way to save the world on the feeding front.

Hopefully future food production methods will still be productive enough to continue to allow personal choices - omni', veggie, vegan.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: messyhoose on January 22, 2020, 05:52:12 pm
arobwk- no my comment was entirely directed at the coarse comments made by subscribers on here. No- i have not seen anti veganism in the media, as i say every business this year (and we are not even past the first month yet!) seems to tripping over itself to get on the vegan bandwagon. I thought this would happen last year but that was the year of Flexitarianism- now that has gone a step further this year. I have respect for someone who hunts and kills their own food and none for a meat eater who puts their fingers in their ears about the "death issue" and buys their meat in plastic wrap. Some points mentioned by others here: yes vegans are anti honey production (bees fed sugar water so we get the honey) Yes they now realise almond milk production results in the death of bees on a huge scale- so decisions have to be made on the best alt to dairy that does not have an impact on another animal. Yes vegans did rely on plastics as an alt to leather in the past- but there are now banana and mushroom fibre alts that are more environ friendly (and remember leather production uses loads of water and chemicals too so although it might be considered "natural" it is not without a negative environ impact.)| Meat eaters are as bad at their (mis)use of plastics as vegans- it is a global not diet specific problem. All vegans i know are environmentally aware too so they are constantly asking q's about the content of their food choices (eg a lot of vegan stuff had palm oil in- so now those products are being boycotted.....its a never ending question) There is no perfect solution to all the ills human kind has caused over the centuries (and lets face it mostly in the last 200 years). Re: the question- "what do vegans think will happen to all the animals"...well its the same issue with those of us wanting to see an end to horse racing- the pro racers say "but if racing is banned what will happen to all the horses?". The answer is the same. For the short term animals would be taken into sanctuaries to live out their natural lives. NO MORE DOMESTICATED ANIMALS WOULD BE BRED FROM. So after these animals have died of illness or old age there would be no more farm animals, no more horses to be concerned about. Vegans would rather have a world with no domestic animals than a world where animals are ill treated (or for a vegan- exploited in any way). I have lived my life with pets, rescuing animals (and not breeding them) and could not imagine life without them. Thats why vegans dont like me. But i am vegan- why? because i am not prepared to kill an animal to feed myself (so why should i expect someone else to do it for me) and there are so many things wrong with modern intensive livestock farming that i am not prepared to support it. When WWOOFing i drank milk and ate eggs from the animals i cared for. I know we cant all rear our own animals/ grow our own food but humans in general totally forget an animal has lost its life to feed them- it makes me angry when i see people throw meat in the bin- how dare they! I am not anti meat eating per sei, i am anti the alien way this world has turned food production into something corrupt and unsustainable ( and i include farming of the worlds vegetables in that statement too).
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: arobwk on January 22, 2020, 06:55:16 pm
.... I am not anti meat eating per sei, i am anti the alien way this world has turned food production into something corrupt and unsustainable ( and i include farming of the worlds vegetables in that statement too).
I don't think many of us, actually, are that far apart in our views about the way our food should be produced, i.e. more sustainably! 


Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: macgro7 on January 22, 2020, 10:29:44 pm
Wonder if vegans have a problem with us keeping (working) bees for honey and also pollinating their plants?  :innocent:
Some actually do have problems with that. I heard of that since time ago.
That's how silly it's gone.
I got raised eyebrows several times when I suggested I want to get an electric fence to protect my hens from foxes - people thought its cruel for the hens and for foxes. Amazing how detached people are nowadays from what is actually real life.
No one used to bother with such silly issues back in the days because they new if you want fertilizer for your veggies you to have a cow. If you want your children to survive the winter and have enough vitamins you need a cow and vegetables. If you want nice dinner, for special occasions at least you need to slaughter a chicken or a cute lamb. Everyone used to do that. Nowadays people who think it's normal are looked at as of they are criminals.
The whole world has gone upside down.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: messyhoose on January 23, 2020, 08:13:47 pm
macgro what you say is absolutely true which is why i find most eaters to be utter hypocrits- as a vegan i have actually killed more animals than prob any of my meat eating friends (they cant bear the idea of an animals being killed and would rather put their fingers in their ears and let someone else be responsible for the dirty side of their food production). I have humanely killed dying pet chickens, pet rats, a squirrel, a hedgehog (both road casualties- not my fault) and rabbit with myxy.
So please everyone stop slating ethical vegans (not the ones just doing it for a fad). Most of us know exactly how food is produced,  and are not sofa surfing middle class townies as would like to be portrayed. Indeed we spend a lot of our spare time researching and getting out facts right (and i worked in farming to be sure i knew what was what) . True there will be some who "go overboard" but it is understandable when you consider they are getting emotional about animals lives.
Sure if every meat eater i met said they would happily go and kill an animal to meet their dietary needs then id say good on you. But instead just today i witness an undercover video of abattoir workers and their deplorable and heinous behaviour towards the sheep they were stunning and slaughtering, and my belief that animal farming has gone totally upside down is confirmed-  its not a lie, a media whipped up story- it is visual evidence that workers had no concern for the welfare of these sheep prior to slaughter. When atrocities like this are finally wiped out- then do talk to me again about which of us has the wrong illusion about animal farming :(
"
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Steph Hen on January 24, 2020, 07:56:28 am
I wish my family would only eat animals we've been responsible for and killed. I don't really like buying meat from anywhere else as it feels like passing the buck. One Day.

Had an interesting chat the other day;

"I could never kill an animal but I think it's fine to eat meat from a shop; as much as you want, if you've got the money. But I am completely against hunting or killing for sport or pleasure of any kind."

This feels hypocritical to me on a couple of counts. Is gluttony indulgence in pleasure? Cognative dissidence, if that's how it's spelt. I'm not sure the point at which want becomes need. Sure I know some unhealthy vegans and vegetarians but I know far more unhealthy omnivores.

I'm pretty sure less will save the plannet. I read it in Dave Goulson's latest book on wildlife gardening recently. I've said this for ages; just bit less food, less driving, less and fewer. I don't think we need dietary products or gyms to lose weight, just less. Nor all these different apples in every supmarket, grown from round the world, or all the clothes or any of it. Less would save the planet, not quorum or vertical farming, but it won't make money.



 
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: harmony on January 24, 2020, 09:51:45 am
Sure if every meat eater i met said they would happily go and kill an animal to meet their dietary needs then id say good on you. But instead just today i witness an undercover video of abattoir workers and their deplorable and heinous behaviour towards the sheep they were stunning and slaughtering, and my belief that animal farming has gone totally upside down is confirmed-  its not a lie, a media whipped up story- it is visual evidence that workers had no concern for the welfare of these sheep prior to slaughter. When atrocities like this are finally wiped out- then do talk to me again about which of us has the wrong illusion about animal farming :(
"



Animal cruelty should not be tolerated but not all slaughter houses have poor standards. Should all pet dogs be banned because some people treat their pets cruelly?
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Alex_ on January 24, 2020, 09:52:16 am
Quote
Most of us on TAS are well-rehearsed in the arguments for extensive, pasture-fed meat and dairy, and as frustrated as I am that there seems to be no realistic recipe for sustainable veganism in the UK - but that doesn't stop the spread of it.

What are the arguments for pasture fed meat and dairy?
How will grassland save the world?

I am not a vegan although recently i have started reducing meat levels to feel like i am doing something for the environment and i tried the vegan KFC burger and thought it was great. I have been raising my own meat for a few years now and would love to raise all my own meat but that's not an option for me because i do not have much space.

Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: macgro7 on January 24, 2020, 10:41:13 am
Quote
Most of us on TAS are well-rehearsed in the arguments for extensive, pasture-fed meat and dairy, and as frustrated as I am that there seems to be no realistic recipe for sustainable veganism in the UK - but that doesn't stop the spread of it.

What are the arguments for pasture fed meat and dairy?
How will grassland save the world?

I am not a vegan although recently i have started reducing meat levels to feel like i am doing something for the environment and i tried the vegan KFC burger and thought it was great. I have been raising my own meat for a few years now and would love to raise all my own meat but that's not an option for me because i do not have much space.
It's very simple actually - when the grass grows 10 inches tall the roots also grow around 10 inches. When the cow eats 7 inches from the top - 7 inches of the roots will die of and stay in the soil as carbon - fixed from the atmosphere. Your cow will then poo on the grass this fertilizing the soil even more with mass of nutrients and nitrogen.
When you plough a field to grow maize for silage you realise a massive amount of nitrogen and carbon from soil into the atmosphere. You use a lot of fossil fuel, water, artificial fertilizers etc. And cows could do all the job for you and still FIX the carbon and nitrogen instead if realising it.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: messyhoose on January 24, 2020, 10:55:38 am
harmony- yes a vegan would say better a world without pet dogs than a world of animal sanctuaries full to the rafters with mistreated and abandoned dogs (which is where we currently stand- i worked in a dog shelter for a while too- no life for a dog)
so by your arguement there are many bad things but because its not ALL bad we can just forget about it then?- Yes i do believe banning is the ultimate solution. But as i have said to many extreme vegans (we have fb forums too) i said the chances of making the world vegan in the next hundred years are slim to 0% whereas the chance of making a difference to farm animals lives right now in campaigning for better conditions- not outright demanding a ban is very high indeed. So, among other issues, i will continue to highlight the terrible things that happen in slaughterhouses- campaigning for mandatory cctv which can be independently inspected is a start (coming soon to Scotland- come on the rest of the UK!). Our animal welfare laws say a farm animals welfare should be assured up to the point of slaughter. If they had been my sheep i would be outraged that i had done everything to give them the best quality of life only for them to be abused and tortured by the abbatoir staff before finally being dead. Surely high welfare meat (eg smallholders animals) means at all stages of production?
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: harmony on January 24, 2020, 11:16:45 am
Quote
I am not a vegan although recently i have started reducing meat levels to feel like i am doing something for the environment



Is there not a big difference between feeling like and knowing you are doing something for the environment?
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: harmony on January 24, 2020, 11:25:43 am
harmony- yes a vegan would say better a world without pet dogs than a world of animal sanctuaries full to the rafters with mistreated and abandoned dogs (which is where we currently stand- i worked in a dog shelter for a while too- no life for a dog)
so by your arguement there are many bad things but because its not ALL bad we can just forget about it then?- Yes i do believe banning is the ultimate solution. But as i have said to many extreme vegans (we have fb forums too) i said the chances of making the world vegan in the next hundred years are slim to 0% whereas the chance of making a difference to farm animals lives right now in campaigning for better conditions- not outright demanding a ban is very high indeed. So, among other issues, i will continue to highlight the terrible things that happen in slaughterhouses- campaigning for mandatory cctv which can be independently inspected is a start (coming soon to Scotland- come on the rest of the UK!). Our animal welfare laws say a farm animals welfare should be assured up to the point of slaughter. If they had been my sheep i would be outraged that i had done everything to give them the best quality of life only for them to be abused and tortured by the abbatoir staff before finally being dead. Surely high welfare meat (eg smallholders animals) means at all stages of production?



Is the world full of sanctuaries? I don't think so. There are far less animals in sanctuaries than live in peoples homes. No, I don't believe we should ignore the bad things. I just don't think we ban everything because some people fall below expectation. I think we improve standards. I too would have been outraged if they were my sheep.



Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: messyhoose on January 24, 2020, 11:36:14 am
harmony you misread me. that happens a lot on internet i find. i said a world .....of sanctuaries that are full to the rafters- and nearly every sanctuary i have been involved with had issues with accepting more than they can acommodate. so i know i am correct.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: harmony on January 24, 2020, 11:55:38 am
harmony you misread me. that happens a lot on internet i find. i said a world .....of sanctuaries that are full to the rafters- and nearly every sanctuary i have been involved with had issues with accepting more than they can acommodate. so i know i am correct.



Yes, you are right I did misread and you did not use the word "full". And yes, it happens a lot on the internet. However I see little difference between " a world of" and a "world full of" because there are still more animals in peoples homes than in sanctuaries. I don't disagree that sanctuaries get full but also the reasons for animals being in there isn't always cruelty.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 24, 2020, 12:02:56 pm
If they had been my sheep i would be outraged that i had done everything to give them the best quality of life only for them to be abused and tortured by the abbatoir staff before finally being dead. Surely high welfare meat (eg smallholders animals) means at all stages of production?

Everyone - farmer, smallholder, whoever - would have been outraged.  Why would you think they weren't?
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: messyhoose on January 24, 2020, 12:17:30 pm
sally in the north- i never suggested they wouldnt, i was responding to a comment that as not all slaughterhouses commit such acts that banning was not necessary (which i as did not suggest- i am a pragmatist and believe in achieveable goals).
The origin of these comments (which looks like it is a regular January topic- judging by last years forum) is asking if veganism is a danger to the planet. Simple answer no, but i can not back that up right here. But the science all says humans should eat less meat and dairy- the result of which would be less intensification of animal farming, and a chance then to have (but no necessarily so i know) better animal welfare. You only have to look at the feedlots in the US to see how animals have just become numbers not individuals capable of suffering.
It is these unfathomable problems that make people turn vegan- in the end we just turn our back on all animal farming because the bad stuff is intolerable and we feel helpless in being able to do anything to improve things.
You have all hut a nerve here as i am generally trying to be the voice of reason on both sides of the arguement- telling vegans that an entire ban on all animal keeping is not on the cards any time soon, but that campaigning to get conditions improved is a step towards better quality of life for animals. I then turn to you lot- small scale animal keepers, prob have names for them all, giving them the best life, and say that is what it should be but the majority of animal agriulture to supply the human race is not reared like that.
Old school vegans prob didnt become vegan to save the planet- it is just comes as an added bonus to the cause.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: harmony on January 24, 2020, 12:26:11 pm
Messyhoose you certainly did say that you "believe banning is the ultimate solution". So, banning what? s
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Fleecewife on January 24, 2020, 12:49:08 pm
Quote
Most of us on TAS are well-rehearsed in the arguments for extensive, pasture-fed meat and dairy, and as frustrated as I am that there seems to be no realistic recipe for sustainable veganism in the UK - but that doesn't stop the spread of it.

What are the arguments for pasture fed meat and dairy?
How will grassland save the world?

I am not a vegan although recently i have started reducing meat levels to feel like i am doing something for the environment and i tried the vegan KFC burger and thought it was great. I have been raising my own meat for a few years now and would love to raise all my own meat but that's not an option for me because i do not have much space.
It's very simple actually - when the grass grows 10 inches tall the roots also grow around 10 inches. When the cow eats 7 inches from the top - 7 inches of the roots will die of and stay in the soil as carbon - fixed from the atmosphere. Your cow will then poo on the grass this fertilizing the soil even more with mass of nutrients and nitrogen.
When you plough a field to grow maize for silage you realise a massive amount of nitrogen and carbon from soil into the atmosphere. You use a lot of fossil fuel, water, artificial fertilizers etc. And cows could do all the job for you and still FIX the carbon and nitrogen instead if realising it.


Plus, as I've mentioned elsewhere, it's not just trees that lock up carbon, other vegetation systems do exactly the same.  Permanent pastureland, floes, taiga, scrubland, peat bogs, veldt, the grasslands of Africa, all these store Carbon to the same extent as trees.  The bandwagon to replace all these with endless trees is a dangerous move.  We need to understand the whole of the science, the ecology, then be selective of where we plant our trees, and where we grow our crops, and where we leave well alone.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: messyhoose on January 24, 2020, 02:44:35 pm
yes harmony- please stop interpreting my words your own way. I SAID that banning is the "absolute solution" to the issue- i didnt say i believed in a ban!!! No-one can deny a ban is the absolute solution to a lot of things- slavery, child labour, fox hunting, plastics, cigarettes- some happened to be more likely than others, and as i have tried to point out i see the arguement from both sides- vegans and farmers, and id rather see changes in farming (and yes that likely includes a reduction in numbers and making animals individuals in our attitude and mindsets again) as that is more achieveable than the world going vegan, short term.
So my first statement- crikey there is a lot of anti veganism ON HERE is all too clear. Seems people here have preconceived ideas that all vegans are crackpots and "silly" . Thanks but that gets us all no-where in the way this planet and our food production is going. And we ALL have an input into how that progresses.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: macgro7 on January 24, 2020, 03:21:47 pm
Quote
Most of us on TAS are well-rehearsed in the arguments for extensive, pasture-fed meat and dairy, and as frustrated as I am that there seems to be no realistic recipe for sustainable veganism in the UK - but that doesn't stop the spread of it.

What are the arguments for pasture fed meat and dairy?
How will grassland save the world?

I am not a vegan although recently i have started reducing meat levels to feel like i am doing something for the environment and i tried the vegan KFC burger and thought it was great. I have been raising my own meat for a few years now and would love to raise all my own meat but that's not an option for me because i do not have much space.
It's very simple actually - when the grass grows 10 inches tall the roots also grow around 10 inches. When the cow eats 7 inches from the top - 7 inches of the roots will die of and stay in the soil as carbon - fixed from the atmosphere. Your cow will then poo on the grass this fertilizing the soil even more with mass of nutrients and nitrogen.
When you plough a field to grow maize for silage you realise a massive amount of nitrogen and carbon from soil into the atmosphere. You use a lot of fossil fuel, water, artificial fertilizers etc. And cows could do all the job for you and still FIX the carbon and nitrogen instead if realising it.


Plus, as I've mentioned elsewhere, it's not just trees that lock up carbon, other vegetation systems do exactly the same.  Permanent pastureland, floes, taiga, scrubland, peat bogs, veldt, the grasslands of Africa, all these store Carbon to the same extent as trees.  The bandwagon to replace all these with endless trees is a dangerous move.  We need to understand the whole of the science, the ecology, then be selective of where we plant our trees, and where we grow our crops, and where we leave well alone.
In fact grassland stores carbon much faster than trees - grass grows much more dry mass per year per acre than forest. We just see 100 year old forest and see lots of carbon stored in branches etc. Its not as obvious with grass - but as I said the life of grass happens much faster than oak.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 24, 2020, 03:36:32 pm
 :hug: [member=174828]messyhoose[/member]

We are starting from opposing ends, and certainly have areas of disagreement, but it would seem to me we both feel the optimum place to aim for at the moment is the middle ground.

I too would love there to be no factory farming of livestock.  I would love all animals to live as natural a life as possible, and those we domesticate to live that life free of physical or mental distress of any kind.

I too believe that the western world needs to eat less meat, but better quality - farmed more with sensitivity to the livestock, to the environment, to the farmer and to all others involved in the process - than is the case at present. 

I passionately believe that whatever we eat must be produced and delivered sustainably, which, with transport being far and away the biggest polluter and emitter of greenhouse gasses, may for some mean that in fact meat and dairy should comprise a significant part of the diet.

Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 24, 2020, 03:45:02 pm
Seems people here have preconceived ideas that all vegans are crackpots and "silly" . Thanks but that gets us all no-where in the way this planet and our food production is going. And we ALL have an input into how that progresses.

I was reaching for ideas on how we might make the truth about farming - in the UK at least - more accessible to those who are turning vegan in this country in the - in my view, mistaken - belief that this will help the environment. 

So yes, I do think many people who have become vegans recently are ill-informed.  That doesn't make them silly or crackpots - I think I made it clear that I believe most to be motivated by laudable ideals - but it does mean we have to work out how to reach them with a more balanced view.

What I would call intelligent debate - which for the most part we are having on this thread, for which I thank you all  :-* - does not these days seem to cut much sway.  The media is driven by emotive headlines and it is not clear to me how to get information through to those who are not seeking it.

Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: messyhoose on January 24, 2020, 04:10:37 pm
absolutely sally in the north. it may have taken me 40 odd years but i evenutally came to realise resaoned debate not mud slinging was the best way to get through life!! :D
of course we all have a uk perspective as that is what we are used to- but the science is not so specific- it is taking a global viewpoint, so yes pastoral farming here is not bad for environment, but feedlots in argentina prob are.
It is funny the desire to get people turning vegan to see the real picture is exactly what vegans want meat eaters (those whose only contact with the animal is a plastic bag in tescos) to do too....
Definitely the middle ground is meat eaters need to be aware what meat production involves and it should be a transparent business or else is subject to being asked what does it have to hide. On the other hand people going vegan for environmental (or even health) reasons need to realise that the answer to climate change is not as simple as stopping eating meat, and that their health can be just as poor if poor food choices are made.
I have witnessed first hand the ugly side of bad farming practices, i wish that i hadnt, but ignorance is not an acceptable solution to todays troubles (be that intensive farms/ climate change/ immigration and wars the  list can go on).
And indeed food production choices have to sensibly be based on location- i was flatly refused a shepherding job in Iceland (the country!) cos unless i ate lamb or fish i would have cost my hosts a fortune (have you seen how much veggies cost up there?!!) .
I used to work on a city farm. Maybe they are the place to start public food education- we had kids who had never seen a live animal, had no idea where milk or eggs came from- that was only 10 years ago. As i say ignorance is not acceptable.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 24, 2020, 04:57:57 pm
I personally couldn't care less about veganism, any more than I care about Sharia law, or people that believe the world is flat. (Yes some still do!)
The world is full of people with different opinions. I may believe they are wrong, but I still respect their right to their opinion.

Nah, the world can't be flat.  If it were, the cats would have pushed everything off it by now ;)
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Fleecewife on January 24, 2020, 05:17:17 pm
 :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:   very good sally  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 24, 2020, 05:18:00 pm
:roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:   very good sally  :thumbsup:

I wish I could claim to be the originator, but it was a meme on FB  a while back
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: harmony on January 24, 2020, 07:08:08 pm
yes harmony- please stop interpreting my words your own way. I SAID that banning is the "absolute solution" to the issue- i didnt say i believed in a ban!!! No-one can deny a ban is the absolute solution to a lot of things- slavery, child labour, fox hunting, plastics, cigarettes- some happened to be more likely than others, and as i have tried to point out i see the arguement from both sides- vegans and farmers, and id rather see changes in farming (and yes that likely includes a reduction in numbers and making animals individuals in our attitude and mindsets again) as that is more achieveable than the world going vegan, short term.
So my first statement- crikey there is a lot of anti veganism ON HERE is all too clear. Seems people here have preconceived ideas that all vegans are crackpots and "silly" . Thanks but that gets us all no-where in the way this planet and our food production is going. And we ALL have an input into how that progresses.



It wasn't obvious you were making a statement messyhoose. So, if you feel I am misreading then be clear in what you say.  Nor do I think vegans are crackpots and silly. Did anyone say that?
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: messyhoose on January 24, 2020, 10:50:32 pm
harmony, whether you misinterpret me or not is your issue not mine to deal with. page 3 had people belittling "silly" vegans and their ideas. The majority of posts (not all- i acknowledge there are many level headed folk here too) have been disparaging and prejudice. The comment that if vegans are ignored their ideas will die a natural death was not your comment i know, but was offensive to those of us that hold our ethical values from experience and information- not  through seeking to get attention or more air time, as has also been commented.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: harmony on January 24, 2020, 11:22:53 pm
I don't think I am misinterpreting you messyhoose nor do I feel it an issue I need to deal with. I acknowledged I had misread one of your comments. The comments you refer to on page 3 didn't say call vegans silly. You have your views and have made choices because of them, personally I respect that even though they are not my views or choices.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Herbs,Hens and Spaniels on January 27, 2020, 02:41:49 pm
Did anyone here go to the Oxford REAL Farming Conference?
Loads of really exciting talks there about no till arable, pasture fed, silvopasture, agroforestry, soya use in animal feeds, organic market gardening e.t.c. They also had a session with George Monbiot, Richard Young, Patrick Holden and others where they discussed pasture fed meat, sustainable agriculture, veganism and factory grown meat/ food. Really interesting stuff!

https://orfc.org.uk
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 27, 2020, 04:54:49 pm
Did anyone here go to the Oxford REAL Farming Conference?
Loads of really exciting talks there about no till arable, pasture fed, silvopasture, agroforestry, soya use in animal feeds, organic market gardening e.t.c. They also had a session with George Monbiot, Richard Young, Patrick Holden and others where they discussed pasture fed meat, sustainable agriculture, veganism and factory grown meat/ food. Really interesting stuff!

https://orfc.org.uk

No, but I wish I could have! Will they publish proceedings, do you know?
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Herbs,Hens and Spaniels on January 27, 2020, 05:07:31 pm
I'm so sorry you couldn't make it! Yes! Here is a link to videos of some of the sessions. https://m.youtube.com/user/realfarmlife/videos?view_as=subscriber

Also they are in the process of making audio recordings of all of the sessions available online too, I'm just not sure when these are coming out.  :)
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Old Shep on January 27, 2020, 06:07:26 pm
Quote
Most of us on TAS are well-rehearsed in the arguments for extensive, pasture-fed meat and dairy, and as frustrated as I am that there seems to be no realistic recipe for sustainable veganism in the UK - but that doesn't stop the spread of it.

What are the arguments for pasture fed meat and dairy?
How will grassland save the world?

I am not a vegan although recently i have started reducing meat levels to feel like i am doing something for the environment and i tried the vegan KFC burger and thought it was great. I have been raising my own meat for a few years now and would love to raise all my own meat but that's not an option for me because i do not have much space.
It's very simple actually - when the grass grows 10 inches tall the roots also grow around 10 inches. When the cow eats 7 inches from the top - 7 inches of the roots will die of and stay in the soil as carbon - fixed from the atmosphere. Your cow will then poo on the grass this fertilizing the soil even more with mass of nutrients and nitrogen.
When you plough a field to grow maize for silage you realise a massive amount of nitrogen and carbon from soil into the atmosphere. You use a lot of fossil fuel, water, artificial fertilizers etc. And cows could do all the job for you and still FIX the carbon and nitrogen instead if realising it.


Plus, as I've mentioned elsewhere, it's not just trees that lock up carbon, other vegetation systems do exactly the same.  Permanent pastureland, floes, taiga, scrubland, peat bogs, veldt, the grasslands of Africa, all these store Carbon to the same extent as trees.  The bandwagon to replace all these with endless trees is a dangerous move.  We need to understand the whole of the science, the ecology, then be selective of where we plant our trees, and where we grow our crops, and where we leave well alone.
In fact grassland stores carbon much faster than trees - grass grows much more dry mass per year per acre than forest. We just see 100 year old forest and see lots of carbon stored in branches etc. Its not as obvious with grass - but as I said the life of grass happens much faster than oak.


I absolutely agree with the benefits of grassland.  I love trees too but grassland is amazing IF grazed correctly. Alan Savory has some very informative videos on youtube about reverting desertified areas back to green.


I respect everyone's decision to eat what they chose as long as they respect mine.  Veganism and vegetarianism rely on a lot of arable farming. (Yes intensive livestock farming may do too and we need to go back to more pasture fed).  In order for the land to sequester carbon it needs green plant cover. What percentage of the year is your average arable field green? Bare soil or yellow crops dont do it.  So how about we stop producing so many cereal crops for animal and human use and turn the arable fields back to pasture fed livestock grazing? We could all then go on the Atkins diet to save the planet!!
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Steph Hen on January 27, 2020, 08:12:32 pm
Grassland can be sustainable, as in goes on forever. Arable cropping of cereals is bad, but industrial vegetable growing is horrendous for the soil.  They can be grown allotment scale fine, and I'm aware of the first crops of no dig potatoes which is exciting.

What we need is permanent crops, all the berries, nuts and fruits, asparagus, and artichokes, and herbs and stuff that's been listed on here before.
Small scale vegetable production, without heavy inputs and machines (lots of people picking and tending all this stuff -don't worry, it'll be robots before you know it).
Grassland managed well, with robust animals that don't need much housing or extra food (there's always going to be a bit of 2nd rate veg they could have, but not endless pellets.)
Sounds like pales diet doesn't it! Sounds pretty healthy to me and probably sustainable, if we'd all accept less consumption on all levels, I still think it would work. I think we'd be eating meat once or twice a week making broths or whatever from leftovers. Eggs too, but from hens scratching over compost rather than pellets of grains and soya.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Old Shep on January 27, 2020, 10:28:03 pm
Sounds like a good plan!


Also one of the first things everyone can do to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and also plastic usage is to stop wasting food.  It's criminal how much is chucked into kitchen bins. All you need to do is plan your meals and shop accordingly surely?


Sorry going a bit off topic....
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: GBov on January 28, 2020, 09:08:16 am
My favorite cousin has a vegan deli and is, in my opinion at least, totally insane on the issue.  Some of her friends though are downright scary and would not hesitate to "save" animals by returning them to the wild.

Like mink.  Yeh, we all know how well that went, don't we?

Slight aside, why is it ok for a fox to kill a rabbit and not for me to do it?  Or to be ok drive a car that kills any animal of any sex or age that it hits but not for me to kill a chicken or for me to even have a chicken?

Why should all domestic animals be killed off in a bloody wave of veganism but not a few at a time for people to eat?  Shelters until they die of old age?  Seriously?

The single largest problem I personally have with veganism is that the diet seems to be almost totally based upon soy and yet no one even seems to notice or care.  Millions upon millions of acres of soy monoculture marinated in toxic chemicals - pesticides, herbicides, chemical fertilizers, fungicides - and then, about three or four weeks before the crop would ripen naturally it is hit with a huge amount of roundup weed killer because, as the plant is dying it ripens its seeds in a desperate attempt to produce the next generation.

Thus the crop is ready for harvest sooner. 

Keep in mind as well that almost 92% of the world's soy crop is GMO and designed to be resistant to glyphosate (roundup) damage so the final spray is much stronger for a roundup ready crop than for any other.

Agrichemicals are known to cause too many problems even to fit into this space.

Now, when an industry has LOTS of something it is easier to find new markets for their existing product than to get a new product to market so soy is now being pushed everywhere and it is totally bad for you.  Like, awesomely bad. The research is there for those who look - the Weston A Price Foundation has lots of good info but people are being sold on its being good for you and a perfect alternative to eating meat.

The new push to veganism is being fueled not by vegans but by a huge multinational industry based upon soy.  The same industry that is supplying feedlots with soy-based livestock feed and also shipping soy-based livestock feed to the UK to mess up livestock keeping here too. 

What farmer has the luxury of not feeding something cheap to their herd that will increase milk production or fatten livestock faster?  Farmers are on such tiny margins that even a small increase in a herds/flocks output means a huge difference in the families' quality of life.  The fact that soy makes rubbish milk, or indeed meat, is beside the point.  It makes MORE of it, faster.

Then toss into the mix ships and shipping and cutting down forests and plowing up more land to grow, you guessed it, more soy and you have a perfect storm.

The UK is totally capable of raising enough food to feed its own population, including its domestic animals and pets but that costs money and requires the infrastructure to do it and the understanding of why it should be done which I can't see happening. 

Remember, the reason animals were domesticated in the first place is because animals eat what humans can not and turn it into something people can eat and use.

That fact is as relevant today as it was 2,000 years ago so I will say it again.  Animals were domesticated to eat what we can't and turn it into food and materials we can.

What crop can you grow on rocky cold poor ground?  Not veg, not grain, not soy - meat!  You can raise meat on it and sequester carbon at the same time.  Win win.

When people tell me that they are vegan and produce all their own food is the day I will respect the movement but until then, with a diet based upon monoculture and imported foods, vegan is not better for the planet or our species.

Sadly though the problem is not vegans v omnivores because I think we could work it out between us, it is all about money and power.

Money and Power.

Root of all evil those two, eh?



Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 28, 2020, 09:43:56 am
You have expressed all of my concerns very eloquently, GBov
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Polyanya on January 28, 2020, 11:06:46 am
Late again to this post and I agree very much with the points mentioned - I'm only repeating what a lot of folk have said in that there are many kinds of vegans some are very extreme, but surely they are a minority like a lot of extremists and they give the rest a bed name. I do know quite a few vegans who admire my ethos to rearing my own domesticated animals as naturally as possible, with good happy well fed lives and understanding deaths - I think its the intensive, artificial, large scale commercial farming that a lot of vegans abhor (so do I). 
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 28, 2020, 11:34:34 am
Yes, as with everything, it's the extremists who ram everything down your throat and respect no-one else's point of view who are the problem.

We've had people who call themselves vegan come here as visitors, and one even came here to live, who have been happy to eat meat we've raised here because they can see that our animals are treated with enormous respect and care.

But I guess in those cases, veganism is a dietary choice rather than a political stance. 
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Herbs,Hens and Spaniels on January 28, 2020, 12:01:43 pm
I think its the intensive, artificial, large scale commercial farming that a lot of vegans abhor (so do I). 

Me too!  :hug: That's the thing isn't it?- Nothing is black or white. There are so many different farming models and livestock farming can be factory scale or a pasture raised, extensive system. Equally fruit and vegetable production can be just as intensive, artificial, large scale and commercial! And does intensive always mean bad? If a Smallholding followed John Seymours  plan for self sufficiency on 5 acres, so say half an acre each of different crops,  fruit and veg, small coppice and perhaps grazing for possibly sheep or hay for a couple of milk goats,( completely hypothetical). Oh and produced organically!

Thats what the likes of Colin Tudge call good intensive.
Also, plenty of room for native breeds and conserving rare breeds in the argument for sustainable food production too, do you think?

Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Steph Hen on January 28, 2020, 12:59:19 pm
 I like the extreme ones, they go to huge lengths to modify their lives and work really hard to try to make things better (in their view). It's the wishy washy hypocrisy I don't like. Animals should be able to exit it their five freedoms, but it's ok to have cats that never get out of a flat, fish in tanks, birds in cages, and all these animals spade and castrated so they never experience sexual drive nor motherhood. With horns and balls and tails cut off.
 It works for us to say it's ok or best for the animals, but it isn't hard to imagine a world that would work better for animals, or where they could exhibit more natural behaviours.
I'm not saying we should ban all these things, pets and livestock farming, but that I think there are some sound arguments for addressing the exploitation of animals and considering other angles of welfare, etc.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 28, 2020, 01:20:04 pm
I'm not saying we should ban all these things, pets and livestock farming, but that I think there are some sound arguments for addressing the exploitation of animals and considering other angles of welfare, etc.

I don't think anyone here would disagree with that last
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Polyanya on January 29, 2020, 07:53:05 pm
Wow I so resonate with all the opinions on here - I wish you all lived near me  :hug:
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: messyhoose on February 05, 2020, 10:07:02 pm
there seems to be as much ignorane on the omnivore front as the extremist vegab front, judging by the, frankly unoriginal, statements of late.
allow me as a diplomatic and open minded vegan to explain all the points you claim to be the ones that you find hardest to understand.
so GBov- please tell me if i can help with anything else:
1) mink. firstly Man introduced a non native species to the uk to exploit for its fur. they were kept singly in barren cages- not a life at all worth living. True releasing them into the wild was not ok. Fact- many escaped of their own accord anyway. Also fact- many animal welfare & rights groups are anti the actions of those that released these animals- acknowledging the devastating consequences to native wildlife and also at the actual ability of the non-native to survive (as with the coypu in Norfolk also). Fur farming should be banned and i dont think many folk would feel a loss to the countryside if this form of animal exploitation were stopped overnight.
2) there is no difference at all to the fox hunting and eating a rabbit, to a lion hunting and eating a deer, from you hunting and eating your kill. BUT- how many consumers actually do go and get their own meat- from killing it and doing all the things necessary to eat it???? And not just because they dont live in the countryside but because a huge number of meat eaters do not want to accept the death part of the food production. If anyone is a hypocrit it is not the vegan with best intentions but it is the meat eater who wont kill an animal themselves!
3) i have already explained how a vegan society would come about- animals would NOT be killed off in a a bloody wave- animals currently alive would be sheltered and NO MORE BREEDING would then bring about the end of livestock farming over a fairly long period of time, possibly decades. I really hate repeating myself.
4)actually i do not eat or drink soy (maybe for us vegans 30 years ago it was all about the soy- and you can blame the italian mafia for that- they destroyed the development of bacterial protein back in the day to protect their business interests- dont blame the consumer. A lot of vegans are also well informed environmentalists and boycott not only soy but anything with palm oil in (which a lot of commercial vegan processed foods also contain). Processed food in general are never all that great are they? We are very aware of what is in our food, and its provenance- but it is not that tricky, or a restrictive diet to be able to buy ethical and environmentally soundly. And on a budget (i aint made of money!!)
5) talking about ships and shipping never forget the business of shipping live animals to foreign lands (not policed by our laws) for slaughter- not only from uk but from NZ and Oz and others- 15,000 sheep drowned when a ship sank in Romania only recently. But thats ok i suppose- they were only going to be killed anyways- right?! : If the UK can feed its own why is the export of live animals still continuing? It is true- money and power!
6) I strongly dispute the statement that domestication of animals came about to utilise foodstuffs we can not. NO! Carnivores (ate the same as us and hunted it with us) were our security and companions, Man domesticated the few herbivores it did because it meant a more reliable meal- rather than going out searching for that animal and (like the rest of the meat eating animal kingdom) only have a 50% success rate of getting a meal (im a zoologist i can explain these figures if you want) why not corral them and have a 100% success rate of catching and eating them? Simples. And not all herbivores were domesticated cos their natural behaviour was not adaptable to meet humans confinement requirements.
7) likewise when meat eaters tell me they have produced all their own food i will respect their movement. Touche.

And Steph Hen, everything you said i agree with except the neutering thing- the reason why neutering is necessary is cos Man does not deal with the fallout. We are already suffering from the over population of cats and dogs due to breeding - with the resultant litters being neglected or dumped at animal shelters- again ive said this before- shelters are full to the rafters with unwanted dogs and cats- does that demonstrate a society that should be allowed to exploit animals without consequence? Tells me vegans arguement against having pets may have a point. There may be extremist vegans but there are plenty of animal abusing/ neglecting humans too sadly. So in the face of a society with pet animals i wholeheartedly condone sterilisation (you can not claim that a domestic animal has in any way shape or form a normal life in order to then prioritise the "normal  behaviour" of procreation. I went the to HSA AGM many years ago and asked if a local anaestetic for lay farmers might ever be available for farmers to castrate lambs humanely. I am anti tail docking. They said no- that the pain caused was short lived and the number of sheep castrated annually made it unlikely a farmer would afford such a luxury- they suggested farmers alter their management methods in order to make castration unnecessary as a way to avoid having to do it, if they were against it. At that same meeting a very voiciferous group argued against the culling of day old male chicks via the mincer method. They were shot down, saying the killing took milliseconds and the chicks would be unaware. However over a decade later now many egg producing companies have researched ways to sex the eggs so that soon no male chicks will ever be born in this industry and so male chick mincing will be obsolete :) Progress.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: GBov on February 06, 2020, 01:02:22 am
Numbers 2 and 7?  Me! 

And why should animals be held until they die of old age without doing what all life strives to do, reproduce?
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Steph Hen on February 06, 2020, 08:16:07 am
I was meaning it more as a train of thought rather than thinking it would be ideal to ban neutering.  I simply think there is an interesting debate regarding elective surgery for millions of animals where the 'extreme' vegan argument is 'stop keeping and exploiting animals' which removes the need.

Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: messyhoose on February 06, 2020, 10:32:44 am
GBov- the bigger question is why should animals be held til they die of old age period. We invented domestic animals- they are not natural phenomenon. The world will still have wild animals when all the domestic ones die of old age and are not replaced due to continued breeding (which is "allowed" by Man by the way- you dont give the animals the right to choose who they mate with (and when) do you?- so you have removed any natural part of the process (mate selection, survival of the fittest) anyways. I have ccampaigned against factory farming which totally removes all the animals ability to function the way it was born to, and am happy to endorse farms that seek to improve the quality of life of their animals by observing (as a minimum obligation) the 5 freedoms. As i have already said before i respect anyone who does kill and eat their own, as they are not hypocrits- Of course this is a smallholding forum- i know most of you on here grow and raising your own food!!!!
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: messyhoose on February 06, 2020, 10:49:51 am
Steph Hen- i was not direcctly affected til this winter but this island (a haven for migratory birds) is over run with feral cats. The folk who originally brought cats here (prob to keep mice down in house and barn- there are no rats nor foxes here) have basically turned their back on them- the cats reproduce at liberty, and litters of kittens are not tamed so they also remain unsterilised and breed themselves- and so on and so on.
Id had cats sleeping in my barn but this winter discovered a litter (i found a litter 3 years ago but did not encourage the cats so they left once old enough to follow mom). So i decided to go about taming the family in order to in the next few weeks now catch them and get them neutered. They are costing me  fortune in food- already half a dozen adult entire cats have found out about the free food and visit daily too now. I do not want this to become a cat sanctuary and i dont appreciate the number od dead birds mom brings to her kitten on a regular basis. I can not see any other way than to instigate a steriliation programme- of course i could catch them all and put them to a sanctuary and make them someone elses problem, but i feel that is a wrong use of resources . Its a human nature to procreate too- but that hasnt exactly done the world any favours either has it?! (and no i dont have kids)
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: SallyintNorth on February 06, 2020, 11:27:59 am
[member=174828]messyhoose[/member], I want to thank you for engaging in this conversation; I hope it isn't feeling too much like being in the lion's den!  Hopefully we will all improve our understanding as we discuss these issues  :-*

1.  I don't think many of us would argue for farming for pelts.  Those of us on the meat-eating side of the debate probably all feel that skins / pelts etc from animals that were being killed anyway should be used.  What would be the vegan view on using skins and pelts from animals that had lived out their alloted span?

2.  Gosh, we could have a whole topic on just this aspect.  I have mixed feelings about the idea of us all hunting wild animals for our food... unfortunately, plenty of suffering is caused by hunters not getting a clean shot, so I think that if we are to eat meat at all (other than roadkill), then personally I would prefer the animals to be slaughtered humanely by trained operatives with all the appropriate equipment and backup.  And the same applies to being prepared to kill our own meat; I understand completely the rationale behind saying that meat eaters should kill their own meat, but in practise I would again prefer that no animals are killed by anyone who isn't trained to do it, and who doesn't have all the appropriate equipment, and backup present, to ensure that suffering is minimised - especially if something goes wrong. 

3.  In practise, this would not be possible.  There would have to be a phased approach, where the numbers are reduced over a period of years, or there would have to be a mass slaughter.  In either case, there will have to be slaughter of animals over a transition period.  I will explain some of the reasons why.  Just looking at sheep, Googling tells me that there are approx 14.5 million breeding ewes in the UK, and approx 14.5 million lambs / sheep are slaughtered each year.   Introducing a ban on slaughter after lambing would be impractical; many farms (my own included) do not have the facilities to keep all the lambs on over winter, and there simply isn't the ground / shelter / feed in the country to keep all one year's lambs alive for the rest of their natural lives.  So it would cause untold suffering and other animal welfare issues to introduce a ban on slaughter once the season's crop of lambs have been born.  So the first thing would be to ban tupping, so that from that point on, no more lambs are produced.  Now we have the situation where there are 14.5 million ewes, and probably around 300,000-500,000 tups on top of that, who need to eat, have medications, be sheared, be checked every day and so on.  If you ask a farming organisation or you ask a sheep sanctuary, you will get a similar answer - in terms of actual spend, it costs approx £30 per annum per sheep to keep them alive, well and happy.  I make that around £450 million per annum, decreasing over five to eight years, as the sheep die off naturally.  Total cost to feed and treat the national flock until they have died off, approx £2 billion pounds.  Where is that funding coming from?  And on top of that, you have the time of the humans to undertake all that care.  There won't be enough volunteers to shepherd 15 million sheep, so if we said one full-time human could shepherd 2,000 sheep (they will take less looking after if they are not lambing, so this is my best guess), then we also need to find wages for approx 7,500 full-time shepherds.  That's another £120 million per annum, taking the total cost of your plan - for sheep alone - to around £2.5 billion.  (And that is without accounting for the thousands and thousands of jobs lost in the agricultural services sector, which I would agree is something that would just have to be absorbed - but does have to be funded from somewhere.  I have no figure for that, but I can't imagine it being less than another £billion.)

I won't go through the whole rigmarole in detail again for cattle, but Google says we have 10 million breeding cattle, and the last I checked it cost £300 pa per head to keep a cow.  Cows live longer than sheep, and I suspect would need more than one person per 2,000 to care for them.  So at a rough guess, the cost of your plan for cattle would be around £20-£25 billion.  (And the unbred 10 million cows would be coming a-bulling every 21 days for up to ten years, screaming the place down, busting fences, desperate to get laid... )

And none of that contemplates the use of the land for the animals to graze, the buildings and equipment to care for them, etc.  Approx 3 million hectares are used at present.  Stopping breeding would reduce that, but even if the need for grazing land reduced to 1 million hectares, this ground has to be paid for.  Compulsory purchase would cost maybe around £5 billion, then of course there is ongoing maintenance to fund.

Next, pigs.  Approx 400 million breeding sows...  And another issue here, besides the simple cost per head / lifespan costs.  Most of these pigs are housed, and many would not adapt to a life outdoors, even if the land could be found.

So, if we were to change to a vegan society, there would seem to me to be two options.  Option 1 is to plan a transition period of 10-20 years, with the production of farmed meat being controlled over that period.  By the end of the period, there would be effectively no sheep, cattle or pigs.   Option 2 is to do the mass slaughter and export all the meat / meat products / byproducts to countries which are not going vegan.  I suspect this would cost considerably less than your plan.  There is probably a composite of Options 1 and 2 which is what would actually happen, with the transition period being speeded up as we export as much meat as possible over the period to reduce numbers as quickly as possible, but with the whole being funded by the sales of meat throughout the period.

4.  I remain interested to hear about the actual crops, the actual diet, that could be produced locally, ethically, etc, to feed the 66+ million people in the UK.  I am sure you do source your own food as ethically as you say.  But I have never yet had an answer from anyone about how this could be scaled up for the whole population.  I say this not to be provocative but because, in the absence of an answer, as a farmer, I genuinely do not understand how it could be done in the UK.  (Much more feasible in the US, where the land mass spans so many different climates, soil types, etc, that pretty much anything can be produced somewhere.)

5.  As someone who cares for the environment and about animal welfare, I would support a law which bans the export and import of live animals except in very tightly controlled circumstances.  And - whether we go vegan or not - another law banning the import of unnecessary foodstuffs.

6.  How things came about isn't particularly relevant any more, in my view.  We are where we are, and we have to get to where we want to be from here.  In my Utopia, where all our meat and plant-based foods are produced ethically and locally, there is a wonderful cycle where we and our animals live synergistically.  We provide grass for our cows and sheep, enabling them to fulfill their life goals of producing and rearing young.  We take the surplus milk and meat from this equation.  Our waste food matter feeds pigs, who similarly live productive, happy lives, and again, surplus comes back to us.  We would eat a lot less meat than we do now, but the livestock with whom we share our ground enable us to keep our land in good heart and the acreage in the UK is able to sustainably produce enough for us all.

7.  I respect you, messyhoose, as I can clearly see that you practise what you preach, and like myself, you engage in conversation not just to educate but also to learn.  Well, I do not do particularly well in practising what I preach when it comes to the plant-based elements of my diet; we produce what we can here, but the ground is exposed, coastal, shallow clay and is really only suited to growing grass!  But we are, here, pretty much self-sufficient in beef, lamb/mutton and pork/ham, in milk / dairy, and will be, when we get the chickens reestablished, in eggs.  The labour costs to achieve this are insane, and yet we do it anyway, because of our passion in caring for the environment, animal welfare, and living as sustainably as we can.

The world will still have wild animals when all the domestic ones die of old age and are not replaced due to continued breeding

I think we can't know that this is true.  The amount of land, and management of that land, needed to grow the plant-based food for the entire world population, may well put just as much if not more pressure on natural habitats and wild creatures. 



Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Steph Hen on February 06, 2020, 12:56:13 pm
Steph Hen- i was not direcctly affected til this winter but this island (a haven for migratory birds) is over run with feral cats. The folk who originally brought cats here (prob to keep mice down in house and barn- there are no rats nor foxes here) have basically turned their back on them- the cats reproduce at liberty, and litters of kittens are not tamed so they also remain unsterilised and breed themselves- and so on and so on.
Id had cats sleeping in my barn but this winter discovered a litter (i found a litter 3 years ago but did not encourage the cats so they left once old enough to follow mom). So i decided to go about taming the family in order to in the next few weeks now catch them and get them neutered. They are costing me  fortune in food- already half a dozen adult entire cats have found out about the free food and visit daily too now. I do not want this to become a cat sanctuary and i dont appreciate the number od dead birds mom brings to her kitten on a regular basis. I can not see any other way than to instigate a steriliation programme- of course i could catch them all and put them to a sanctuary and make them someone elses problem, but i feel that is a wrong use of resources . Its a human nature to procreate too- but that hasnt exactly done the world any favours either has it?! (and no i dont have kids)

This is problem caused by other people which has landed on your shoulders. They can't ethically stay and kill the birds and there's nowhere to ethically put them which doesn't make them someone else's problem, and if they do get another home on the island or nearby on a farm or something wanting Ferrel cats, they will likely continue killing birds. The ethical thing to do in my opinion is to tame them enough to trap or get a good shot and shoot them.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: messyhoose on February 06, 2020, 01:22:32 pm
Thanks Sally in the North. Say hi to Trelay doon there! As i say i know this site is for smallholders- of course you are the ideal template for farming- you have the potential to be self sufficient, dont farm in huge numbers which means animals are more likely to be treated and respected as individuals and sentient beings at that.
But how much food production is there in the UK from smallholding? How much of the UK population do they feed?
Problem has always been with the increasing human population that agriculture responded with intensification- suddenly the meat producing animals are not grazing free but are housed all year and fed maize silage (im generalising for brevity). Who the hell invented battery cages was a sick person, but there was a time when the supposed need made them come about. Society then became more aware of how food was produced and rejected them (i know there are enriched" ones now- shame on the Govmt for allowing that to happen). But how many "spent hens" are culled annually and it will continue as long as people want lots and lots of cheap eggs?
I mentioned fur farming as GBov made a point about the release of mink. Shouldnt have happened, but neither should mink farming.
I think there may be a new sector of vegans who believe in using the worlds resources as frugally and ethically as possible. I never wore leather- but now have a pair of second hand ex army boot (as the non leather work boots dont last long and i didnt want to be sending broken footwear to landfill if i could help it). But i still wouldnt buy a secondhand fur coat (not a "necessity"), even if an animal charity was benefiting from its sale- its minefield of moral dilemmas!! I guess if an animal died of old age the skin is a resource but i doubt any vegan would be happy (and that is a human condition, folk would be just as disgusted at skinning their dead pet dog or cat or rabbit but again these are all usable resources).
Wool is environmentally friendly and time was the fleece was more important than the meat. Agriculture changes- some of it is progress some is not. Just because we can not envisage a vastly different society to the one we have become accustomed to does not mean it is impossible- as i said it could be decades after a ban got brought in- just like the phasing out period for battery cages, and no doubt there will be a phasing out period for farrowing crate, giving the industry time to adjust and adapt. But if 14 mil sheep are in the Uk and 14 mil sheep are eaten annually it seems on paper that only a year will be needed before the sheep "issue" is no longer an issue...??
It seems to be true the UK is more self sufficient in meat than it is vegetables. That is not necessarily because it can not be done- just that meat production and export was more lucrative. There is a body of people who think the UK should put more land to vegetable for humans and less crops for animals (and yes i know smallholders mostly rely on natural grass their animal feed that can not be said for the farms where most of the meat production is coming from (high inputs= high outputs).
It isnt just horticulture it is all agriculture that potentially harms the future of wildlife. Lets face it the UK countryside is nearly all manmade. While pastoral beef farming is lovely and ecologically sound how much beef farming is actually in fact in feedlots and so barren of wildlife? (not to mention the fields of barley to feed the cows sprayed with every pesticide and herbicide going...?)
And all the costs you mention would be short term. Once there were no animal farming there would not be  need for farm animal sanctuaries and charities either, nor all the regulations and inspections. Land would be freed up again. The world would carry on with a new balance.
If animals are currently  living in confinement that is what many campaign against anyway- vegan or not neither pigs nor cows nor chickens should endure lives incarcerated with no opportunity to at least some autonomy. So the land they need should already been taken into account regardless of veganism.
I agree humans have the capacity to kill animals more humanely than nature can. You can not have a gun without training in this country anyway- and (this is another bugbear of mine) a farmer, nor indeed any animal keeper does NOT need to be trained in animal care in the current Laws!!  This is what needs addressing to help prevent the neglect and cruelty cases that come to light every year. And ive already had a go at rogue abbatoir workers.... :(
my statement about "producing your own" was not fired at you smallholders- again BGov said they would respect vegans if they produced all their own food. Lucky you lot to have land but the vast number of meat eating citizens living in cities do not produce their own meat or veg so why have a go at just vegans with a statement like that??
So the diet- i avoid as much as possible processed foods and try to buy local (but as am in orkney no food is local local if you know what i mean).
Sure i still like to eat what i have been used to- we are all creatures of habit. I drink coffee (brazil), alcohol (anywhere), eat shop bread, crisps, biscuits, peanut butter (sustainable palm oil) make my own cakes with shop flour and sugar and vegan spread, eat lentils and beans (israel), herbs and spices (anywhere) - but what meat eaters do not indulge in any of those things too? when i worked on organic smallholdings i ate porridge made from our own milled oats, homemade wine, baked all our own bread and cakes, ate frugally but deliciously- soup and bread lunch and a cooked meal at night (assorted seasonal veg from the farm, peas and beans and nuts for protein (tinned or dried)
There seems to be 2 tangled arguements here- one is anti vegans cos it would change the face of agriculture, change the use of land in the UK and change the way we see the countryside (manmade as it is already) BUT you can not blame vegans for unsustainable diets- i know plenty of omnivores who eat imported meat, exotic fruit and veg or merely out of season fruit and veg without even a glance at the country of origin.
So we are all responsible for making environmentally aware food choices, and if anything cos vegans spend a lot of time researching what they can and can not eat they tend to already ahead of the class in this knowledge.
Veganism wont destroy the planet, Humans will :(

Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: messyhoose on February 06, 2020, 01:24:47 pm
yeah but Steph Hen i have accepted the problem and found a way to deal so the cats can live out their natural life- after which there will be no more cats. Bird problem for now, but not forever.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: GBov on February 06, 2020, 01:32:10 pm
[member=174828]messyhoose[/member], I want to thank you for engaging in this conversation; I hope it isn't feeling too much like being in the lion's den!  Hopefully we will all improve our understanding as we discuss these issues  :-*

1.  I don't think many of us would argue for farming for pelts.  Those of us on the meat-eating side of the debate probably all feel that skins / pelts etc from animals that were being killed anyway should be used.  What would be the vegan view on using skins and pelts from animals that had lived out their alloted span?

2.  Gosh, we could have a whole topic on just this aspect.  I have mixed feelings about the idea of us all hunting wild animals for our food... unfortunately, plenty of suffering is caused by hunters not getting a clean shot, so I think that if we are to eat meat at all (other than roadkill), then personally I would prefer the animals to be slaughtered humanely by trained operatives with all the appropriate equipment and backup.  And the same applies to being prepared to kill our own meat; I understand completely the rationale behind saying that meat eaters should kill their own meat, but in practise I would again prefer that no animals are killed by anyone who isn't trained to do it, and who doesn't have all the appropriate equipment, and backup present, to ensure that suffering is minimised - especially if something goes wrong. 

3.  In practise, this would not be possible.  There would have to be a phased approach, where the numbers are reduced over a period of years, or there would have to be a mass slaughter.  In either case, there will have to be slaughter of animals over a transition period.  I will explain some of the reasons why.  Just looking at sheep, Googling tells me that there are approx 14.5 million breeding ewes in the UK, and approx 14.5 million lambs / sheep are slaughtered each year.   Introducing a ban on slaughter after lambing would be impractical; many farms (my own included) do not have the facilities to keep all the lambs on over winter, and there simply isn't the ground / shelter / feed in the country to keep all one year's lambs alive for the rest of their natural lives.  So it would cause untold suffering and other animal welfare issues to introduce a ban on slaughter once the season's crop of lambs have been born.  So the first thing would be to ban tupping, so that from that point on, no more lambs are produced.  Now we have the situation where there are 14.5 million ewes, and probably around 300,000-500,000 tups on top of that, who need to eat, have medications, be sheared, be checked every day and so on.  If you ask a farming organisation or you ask a sheep sanctuary, you will get a similar answer - in terms of actual spend, it costs approx £30 per annum per sheep to keep them alive, well and happy.  I make that around £450 million per annum, decreasing over five to eight years, as the sheep die off naturally.  Total cost to feed and treat the national flock until they have died off, approx £2 billion pounds.  Where is that funding coming from?  And on top of that, you have the time of the humans to undertake all that care.  There won't be enough volunteers to shepherd 15 million sheep, so if we said one full-time human could shepherd 2,000 sheep (they will take less looking after if they are not lambing, so this is my best guess), then we also need to find wages for approx 7,500 full-time shepherds.  That's another £120 million per annum, taking the total cost of your plan - for sheep alone - to around £2.5 billion.  (And that is without accounting for the thousands and thousands of jobs lost in the agricultural services sector, which I would agree is something that would just have to be absorbed - but does have to be funded from somewhere.  I have no figure for that, but I can't imagine it being less than another £billion.)

I won't go through the whole rigmarole in detail again for cattle, but Google says we have 10 million breeding cattle, and the last I checked it cost £300 pa per head to keep a cow.  Cows live longer than sheep, and I suspect would need more than one person per 2,000 to care for them.  So at a rough guess, the cost of your plan for cattle would be around £20-£25 billion.  (And the unbred 10 million cows would be coming a-bulling every 21 days for up to ten years, screaming the place down, busting fences, desperate to get laid... )

And none of that contemplates the use of the land for the animals to graze, the buildings and equipment to care for them, etc.  Approx 3 million hectares are used at present.  Stopping breeding would reduce that, but even if the need for grazing land reduced to 1 million hectares, this ground has to be paid for.  Compulsory purchase would cost maybe around £5 billion, then of course there is ongoing maintenance to fund.

Next, pigs.  Approx 400 million breeding sows...  And another issue here, besides the simple cost per head / lifespan costs.  Most of these pigs are housed, and many would not adapt to a life outdoors, even if the land could be found.

So, if we were to change to a vegan society, there would seem to me to be two options.  Option 1 is to plan a transition period of 10-20 years, with the production of farmed meat being controlled over that period.  By the end of the period, there would be effectively no sheep, cattle or pigs.   Option 2 is to do the mass slaughter and export all the meat / meat products / byproducts to countries which are not going vegan.  I suspect this would cost considerably less than your plan.  There is probably a composite of Options 1 and 2 which is what would actually happen, with the transition period being speeded up as we export as much meat as possible over the period to reduce numbers as quickly as possible, but with the whole being funded by the sales of meat throughout the period.

4.  I remain interested to hear about the actual crops, the actual diet, that could be produced locally, ethically, etc, to feed the 66+ million people in the UK.  I am sure you do source your own food as ethically as you say.  But I have never yet had an answer from anyone about how this could be scaled up for the whole population.  I say this not to be provocative but because, in the absence of an answer, as a farmer, I genuinely do not understand how it could be done in the UK.  (Much more feasible in the US, where the land mass spans so many different climates, soil types, etc, that pretty much anything can be produced somewhere.)

5.  As someone who cares for the environment and about animal welfare, I would support a law which bans the export and import of live animals except in very tightly controlled circumstances.  And - whether we go vegan or not - another law banning the import of unnecessary foodstuffs.

6.  How things came about isn't particularly relevant any more, in my view.  We are where we are, and we have to get to where we want to be from here.  In my Utopia, where all our meat and plant-based foods are produced ethically and locally, there is a wonderful cycle where we and our animals live synergistically.  We provide grass for our cows and sheep, enabling them to fulfill their life goals of producing and rearing young.  We take the surplus milk and meat from this equation.  Our waste food matter feeds pigs, who similarly live productive, happy lives, and again, surplus comes back to us.  We would eat a lot less meat than we do now, but the livestock with whom we share our ground enable us to keep our land in good heart and the acreage in the UK is able to sustainably produce enough for us all.

7.  I respect you, messyhoose, as I can clearly see that you practise what you preach, and like myself, you engage in conversation not just to educate but also to learn.  Well, I do not do particularly well in practising what I preach when it comes to the plant-based elements of my diet; we produce what we can here, but the ground is exposed, coastal, shallow clay and is really only suited to growing grass!  But we are, here, pretty much self-sufficient in beef, lamb/mutton and pork/ham, in milk / dairy, and will be, when we get the chickens reestablished, in eggs.  The labour costs to achieve this are insane, and yet we do it anyway, because of our passion in caring for the environment, animal welfare, and living as sustainably as we can.

The world will still have wild animals when all the domestic ones die of old age and are not replaced due to continued breeding

I think we can't know that this is true.  The amount of land, and management of that land, needed to grow the plant-based food for the entire world population, may well put just as much if not more pressure on natural habitats and wild creatures.


 :notworthy:  You covered every point beautifully!

Up until 5 months ago, I fed my family of 4 on what I could produce in a small yard in Florida and while meat was always easy, vegetables and fruit and grains and roots?  OMG they are so not easy to grow and even harder is to grow the poundage needed.  My garden was pure powder sand, imagine how much veg loved growing in pure sand, not!

I know first hand that vegan food doesn't grow everywhere and not only does it not, it CAN'T grow everywhere.  And without manure to fertilize with then chemical fertilizers have to be used and they kill the microbiome that the plants need to become high-quality food instead of empty bulk.

Hunting, fishing, trapping, growing, raising, harvesting, finding roadkill, butchering, processing, storing for later was a full-time job just to keep four people fed, not counting what I did to keep a bit of money coming in.

There is not enough time or space or wildlife or fish or roadkill in the world for every person to do what we did, there just isn't. 





About the cat problem, yes it is a problem caused by people but it is a people solvable problem as well.
 Trapping cats is not hard - use a larger cage trap than recommended - and a .22 will sort it from there.

Having grown up on an island we had 17 cats once from people abandoning them.  The starving kittens we dragged home, my poor mum could hardly afford to feed us, never mind the endless strays.

It sounds harsh to say shoot them but I have also worked with feral cats and they so seldom turn into good companions that it is, to me at least, better to humanely kill the ones that have no chance of a better life as a pet/working animal and focus on the ones that can.

All of life is a balancing act between what we would love to happen and what we can actually get done and not going mental and getting lost somewhere in the middle is, to me, a big win in the long run.

"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things that I can;
and the wisdom to know the difference."



Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: GBov on February 06, 2020, 01:51:19 pm
The program The Wartime Farm covered many of your points Messyhoose and is well worth a watch.

Taking animals off the land works short term but not long term.  Soil fertility drops off fast without organic matter going back in and manure is a huge part of keeping soil healthy.

Personally, I LOVE the idea of a total ban on imports that can be produced in the UK by local farmers. 

Interestingly enough, it was Kentucky Fried Chicken that started the entire mass production of poultry thing off, the demand was so high that the founder sent out word that whoever could produce a faster/bigger/cheaper chicken was going to get his business and the race was on.

Fast food burgers were the starting point for feedlot beef because it takes fat to stick mince together into a burger patty and grazing cattle dont get fat enough fast enough.  Keep them still and feed them huge amounts of unsuitable food and they get fat fast, just like people do.

I look at my kids and the world around us and think, yeh, we will be lucky to survive this perfect s**t storm that humans have created.  On my good days, I think we have a chance - after all, some fantastic people are working really hard at it - and on my bad days, I think we are all just doomed so why bother trying?

So far, good days outnumber the bad so we keep plugging on, doing the best we can.  All we can do, really.




Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: SallyintNorth on February 06, 2020, 03:56:57 pm

But if 14 mil sheep are in the Uk and 14 mil sheep are eaten annually it seems on paper that only a year will be needed before the sheep "issue" is no longer an issue...??


I was responding to your statement

3) i have already explained how a vegan society would come about- animals would NOT be killed off in a a bloody wave- animals currently alive would be sheltered and NO MORE BREEDING would then bring about the end of livestock farming over a fairly long period of time, possibly decades. I really hate repeating myself.

which, to me implied that the 15 million breeding sheep would be living out their natural lives, that there would not be a mass slaughter.

If we did go the "eat this one last batch" route, it would take more than a year unless we export some of the meat. Of the 14 million eaten each year at the moment, the majority are that year's lambs.  If we stop producing more lambs we will have nearly 15 million ewes and tups to eat.  I doubt the UK would eat that much mutton in a year - lots of people wouldn't eat mutton in place of lamb - so it would take time.

It seems to be true the UK is more self sufficient in meat than it is vegetables. That is not necessarily because it can not be done- just that meat production and export was more lucrative.


I don't think this is the case at all.  In general, if land is suitable for arable then it is put to arable.  The 30% of the farmed land in the UK which is used for livestock is for the most part unsuitable for crop production. 

Interestingly, environmental schemes in the last two - three decades have aimed to prevent grassland being ploughed and turned over to arable, because farming livestock in an environmentally-sensitive way is far better for the planet than growing crops on ground which is better suited to growing grass.

Anther facet that I have pondered about is how arable actually works without a livestock sector.  The loss of natural fertiliser has been mentioned, but the way a lot of arable production in this country works is that the crop is aimed at the best market - bread flour, for instance - but often, the climatic conditions prevent the crop achieving this quality.  So in the next best years it would go for brewing, perhaps, and in the rest to animal feedstuffs.  If the backstop market disappears, then in many years there will be no outlet for the crop at all. 

There is a body of people who think the UK should put more land to vegetable for humans and less crops for animals (and yes i know smallholders mostly rely on natural grass their animal feed that can not be said for the farms where most of the meat production is coming from (high inputs= high outputs).

Again, in general, livestock are only grazing arable land as part of a rotation, putting heart back into the soil.  The majority of lambs in the UK are produced on marginal lands which are not suited for any kind of arable, or by a hybrid of the two - for instance, ewes on marginal land over winter, then the lambs finished on lowland grass as part of a rotation.

There is a lot of information which smells to me as though it originates in the States, where feed can be readily grown and the feedlot model works.  In the UK, that model would be insane.  We have so much ground suited only to stock farming, and produce such excellent livestock on it.  The northern cattle marts process thousands of yearling stirks each year, produced and reared extensively.  Lowland farms will buy those yearlings and take them to the next stage on their leys as part of their rotation, and then yes, for the last 4-6 weeks, some of those animals may be "finished" with barley, some of that indoors (but in general, mostly only indoors once the weather turns and the animals are too heavy for the wet ground.)  In good years, the crops hit top quality and most don't go for animal feeds, but the grass grew well enough the animals finish on grass.  In poor years, there's less grass but the crops weren't good enough for human consumption, so go to animal feed and make up for the poorer grass.




While pastoral beef farming is lovely and ecologically sound how much beef farming is actually in fact in feedlots and so barren of wildlife?

See above - the answer is "not a lot, generally.  Not in the UK".

a farmer, nor indeed any animal keeper does NOT need to be trained in animal care in the current Laws!! 

Not true.  There are Codes of Welfare for each species, and all state that handlers must be suitably trained. 

I know a lot of people think that the Red Tractor scheme adds little value, but what it does do is add inspection and enforcement to the legislation, including this bit.  I have been inspected - for ten years - under the Red Tractor scheme and they do check out new key workers coming onto the farm, and check that the farmer and key workers are getting ongoing training.

We might both argue that, if meat is to remain a part of the UK diet, then we should increase the policing and enforcement of the Welfare Codes, including into farms and smallholdings which are not routinely inspected through their participation in any scheme (organic, Red Tractor, or whatever.)


my statement about "producing your own" was not fired at you smallholders- again BGov said they would respect vegans if they produced all their own food. Lucky you lot to have land but the vast number of meat eating citizens living in cities do not produce their own meat or veg so why have a go at just vegans with a statement like that??

Fair point! 

On the topic of all meat-eaters to grow their own meat, I feel much the same about this as I do on the "killing your own meat" one.  I understand where you are coming from, but I would sooner all livestock are looked after by people who are trained to do so, and can afford the equipment, medications, expert help, etc, that is needed.  If we went back to backyard pigs and hens, if every street had a few goats or a dairy cow, there would be a lot of animals not properly looked after.

Farmed is not synonymous with poor welfare, and reared on a smallholding is not synonymous good welfare.  Often, in my view, it can be the other way around.  Many smallholders may have their hearts in the right place, and many of them - lots of those on this forum, of course! :D - do an excellent job, but I'm afraid that many small keepers don't have the skills, experience, training or funds to meet the physiological needs of their livestock as well as a proper farm can and does.  There are exceptions at both ends of the spectrum, of course.

I'm fond of saying that a sheep doesn't care much if it has a name and is loved if it's uncomfortable or sickly - but of course, being well-cared for and treated as an individual is the best of both worlds ;).

So the diet- i avoid as much as possible processed foods and try to buy local (but as am in orkney no food is local local if you know what i mean).

Actually, Orkney is a place which exemplifies much of what I have been saying.  What it has a lot of is grassland, and what it can - and does - produce really well, with little input, is livestock.  I would argue that to eat sustainably in Orkney, meat should be a significant part of the diet, because that is what the locale can most readily produce.  Including the (in)famous seaweed-eating North Ronaldsay sheep!

when i worked on organic smallholdings i ate porridge made from our own milled oats, homemade wine, baked all our own bread and cakes, ate frugally but deliciously- soup and bread lunch and a cooked meal at night (assorted seasonal veg from the farm, peas and beans and nuts for protein (tinned or dried)

Heaven! But of course, for me, any imported nuts would be replaced by home-produced meat or dairy ;)

There seems to be 2 tangled arguements here- one is anti vegans cos it would change the face of agriculture, change the use of land in the UK and change the way we see the countryside (manmade as it is already) BUT you can not blame vegans for unsustainable diets- i know plenty of omnivores who eat imported meat, exotic fruit and veg or merely out of season fruit and veg without even a glance at the country of origin.
So we are all responsible for making environmentally aware food choices, and if anything cos vegans spend a lot of time researching what they can and can not eat they tend to already ahead of the class in this knowledge.
Veganism wont destroy the planet, Humans will :(

I hope, through conversations such as this one, we can all find our way through the tangled arguments to a better understanding, and all make better - more sustainable, more environmentally-sensitive - choices as a result.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: harmony on February 06, 2020, 05:59:25 pm

my statement about "producing your own" was not fired at you smallholders- again BGov said they would respect vegans if they produced all their own food. Lucky you lot to have land but the vast number of meat eating citizens living in cities do not produce their own meat or veg so why have a go at just vegans with a statement like that??
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Is BGov's comment any different to saying someone will respect meat eaters if they kill their own meat?







Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: GBov on February 06, 2020, 06:55:20 pm
When I say I will respect the Vegan choice if even one can prove they are producing their entire diet, on their own is one I will stand by.

Not one that I have spoken too has been able to say this while I personally know, and have spoken to many, omnivores that can say they produce everything they eat. 

And while I did not produce 100% of our year-round food, depending upon the time of year I produced between 20-90% of veg and 100% of our meat myself.

Without meat we would have starved to death.

There may be places in the world that can produce a totally veg diet in a healthy sustainable way but so far, I haven't seen it.

Sorry, yes, my feedlot info is US-based, not UK.  Grass in the UK is so good it blows my mind, cattle on Florida grass look like skin and bones compared to UK cattle. 
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: messyhoose on February 06, 2020, 08:21:24 pm
indeed sally informative conversation over sensationalisation any day!

i can not comment on the local farming scene or i will probably be lynched and im not ready to go down yet.... :/

i do need to point out i am right though- the Codes of Practice ( yes i have them all) are not Law- they are merely advisory, but may be used in a prosecution as evidence of a violation of the animal welfare act (which is a Law but does not state unequivocally that people working with animals must be trained to a level of competency ( i did my nptc safe use of vet meds as i thought that might eventually become a legal requirement- but no its still just a "best practice recommendation". I know there are plenty of training centres available- my point is anyone can buy and keep most types of animal (not dangerous exotic ones sure) without any kind of evidence they know what they are doing. This train of thought came about after the killing your own food vs "trained farmer" comment, ie farmers arent nec any more informed, but as i said i think should be.

People often use our own arguement against us- "if you stop killing animals to eat then what will happen to them- they will all be killed" is a nonsensical arguement constantly thrown up to make the possible seem impossible .
I could argue against all the points but we would be here til judgement day, and the internet is there for a reason- the arguement for and against everything we have all raised have been said a billion times in far better ways than i can on a web forum screen! :D

It is apparent here folk are talking about their extensive ruminant production. The reports all say with increasing human population intensification of these systems is the only way to meet demand- so how do you address that? Id rather not eat meat is how i do.
But apparently chickens and pigs are (in the UK anyway) consumed more than ruminants- and these species can not live off grass that we cant uiltise in our diet- so what is the arguement for the continuation of farming species that are in competition with our food- and additionally are subject to far more intensification than the ruminants in general (with applications for mega farms of pigs or poultry being applied for more and more over the last decade)-often in veg growing counties!!

So Sally- back to your original ask- all those weeks ago.  Maybe vegans like me became so in the 60s, 70s (when compassion in world farming was started by a UK dairy farmer!) and 80s because we could not condone the increasing intensification of animal farming that had occurred post war. I mean my first reason to give up was, for sure, i couldnt equate the different ways humans see different animals- dogs and cats given our homes, sheep and cows sent away to be steaks and joints. Behaviourally they can all suffer equally. It was this epiphany that stopped me eating meat. I then went to work on organic animal farms as i love being around animals, and they were exemplary places- animals given space to live a life worth living- before they went to be food. But i have also witnessed the bad side of animal agriculture- the calves in veal crates, the chickens in cages, screaming pigs in barren concrete yards, sick and injured animals left untreated, the brutality of some farmers to animals. Some of these things have been banned or at least "improved" (big quotation marks). But there is still so much that is wrong with animal agriculture.
So maybe the way to turn the tide of the feared increasing veganism is for all you food producers to join the campaign to bring an end to factory style farming- to end the cage age, to end live exports for slaughter, to make abbatoirs behaviour to the animals so totally accountable that even a child could watch the process and not be scarred for life after. Hiding systems behind closed doors only leads to questions and possible misinterpretation- openness in food production will help that.
Maybe, just maybe if all the horrors that are rife in animal agriculture were made obsolete then people like me might not have given up on the industry entirely. True- there will always be animal rights vegans- where no animal should be exploited (i dont believe in animals rights- to me there are no right -they are a human construct to let us get on in the world more harmoniously than we might otherwise).
Many vegans like me are animal lovers- and could not contemplate a world without interaction with animals. That is our dilemma A lion will always be a carnivore, food webs occur and we are part of it (except of course we protect ourself to the hilt from being someone else dinner).Animals will be eaten but ......"EXPLOITATION"? ....no- I think above all else that might be the keyword for vegans and the key to making meat eating acceptable in the future, if that is your goal.
 A lion does not exploit the impala, but the kill is potentially much slower and more painful than a human can make it given all the equipment we have available to us, (dont forget the lion will only get a meal 50% of the time she goes out hunting )... but have humans made food production and availability so far removed from these natural processes that the dividing line between vegans and meat eaters is too wide now? I think some vegans might struggle to answer why it is ok for a lion to suffocate a deer to death but a shot to the head of a farmed deer is more diasgreeble.... see im vegan and i dont nec agree with all they say on my side either
And the environmental issues? that was an added bonus to the cause years ago to help engage more people who might not have considered animals and their capacity to suffer.
It was always an issue for many (and has anyone else met a fruitarian- i have and only they can make vegans feel guilty!! But their philosophy - if not entirely achieveable- is total endorsable, do not kill anything, if you eat plant matter killing the plant destroys your food supply, so only take fruits and nuts, so the parent plant survives.
Food production is a world issue, what happens on our doorstep is as important as whats happening elsewhere, but the seemingly relentless daily exposes of another farm / abbatoir doing bad stuff and the seemingly acceptable way animals are increasingly intensively farmed will continue to fuel the next generations desire to try to right the wrongs of the past, and boycotting stuff is often the easiest and quickest way to show ones disapproval of something. And not many of us could cope with an environmental sound but very restrictive fruitarian diet (and no- they dont all believe carrots scream when you pull them out the ground- philosophy over prejudice please)
Goodness that was me not trying to write too much it really is an issue that can not easily be debated in this way. Thanks all for their cool approach here- ive seen very aggressive debates on facebook about the v same issues!!

or maybe not-
GBov- hardly any meat eaters i the UK are producing ANY part of their diet so why you having a go at vegans and not the majority of society? Someone on here called it "vegan food"- hahaha- what do they mean?= the fruit and nuts and veg etc that anyone can eat- it is not vegan specific. Your better off calling the rest "Non-Vegan Food" as it can not be eaten by everyone.  A vegan friend once said- there should be more fresh vegan options in the supermarket- i replied-  so the fruit and veg section at the front of store is not diverse enough or what?
 Harmony, and GBov together- yes there is a huge difference in our respective points-growing you own food is a matter of logistics-  most meat eaters dont grow their own veg either so why only have a go at vegans who likewise do not grow their own veg??? Meanwhile someone who is happy for an animal to be reared and killed and dressed for them to eat but refuses to contemplate getting involved in any part of the act themselves is a hypocrit. If i had time and space i would gladly grow all my ow veg etc, but ask a meat eater if they are prepared to not only grow their veg but their meat too and many (ive asked a lot in london) would be revolted by the idea of sending an animal to slaughter (let alone kill one themselves.) I dont encourage meat eaters to kill their own dinner but as a zoologist and vegan it is only natural for a meat eater to hunt and kill their prey. I couldnt do it and so shun meat (but i can pull and boil a carrot no probs)- i feel anyone who is not prepared to do what nature intended (ie hunt and kill your prey) should not eat meat, if they do it is hypocracy personified. Its the demonstrating the willingness to accept the processes , not the physical act that tells me all too reliably that most meat eaters do  NOT want anything to do with the death of another animal. Ignorant society i say. Smallholders have a different link to their food, i totally get that, i was a smallholder worker for many folk- but sorry what % of UK society is raised on a smallholding? Sadly not many, and it wont be getting any bigger... :(
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: harmony on February 06, 2020, 10:05:31 pm

I still don't get the hypocrisy allegation at all. Meat eaters don't "hunt" their meals.


Nor do I get that Britain should stop farming because America farms in a different way to us.


Is veganism feared? I don't think so.  I think the comment about informative conversation over sensationalism is really pertinent because so much of the vegan argument seems based on sensationalism and generalisation.


Is it possible to convince a whole nation, a continent or the world to stop eating meat? I don't think so because most people doing their weekly shop like having choice and those who eat meat enjoy it.



Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: messyhoose on February 06, 2020, 11:02:26 pm
good grief harmony. really?  do you choose to not understand stuff deliberately? i will not engage with someone deliberately demonstrating intolerance and ignorance. not here- life is too short and quite frankly the debate here is not having any effect on the real issues in the real world. I will continue to spend my valuable time in meaningful debates. Am very sad to repeatedly see this childish level of ignorance or is is arrogance? I have not played devils advocate on here (which pointedly farmers who post on animal welfare forums like to do). Seems farmers like to wind up people who choose not to eat meat for entirely understandable ethical reasons. why is that? TBH i dont care, your questions have recycled despite being given answers (more consise answers available online, dont take a genius to search). ive got the measure of some on here now.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: cambee on February 07, 2020, 07:00:38 am
good grief harmony. really?  do you choose to not understand stuff deliberately? i will not engage with someone deliberately demonstrating intolerance and ignorance. not here- life is too short and quite frankly the debate here is not having any effect on the real issues in the real world. I will continue to spend my valuable time in meaningful debates. Am very sad to repeatedly see this childish level of ignorance or is is arrogance? I have not played devils advocate on here (which pointedly farmers who post on animal welfare forums like to do). Seems farmers like to wind up people who choose not to eat meat for entirely understandable ethical reasons. why is that? TBH i dont care, your questions have recycled despite being given answers (more consise answers available online, dont take a genius to search). ive got the measure of some on here now.

Unfortunately messyhoose however you package it veganism is an extreme and for the most part British people really don’t like extreme views. I like many others don’t care if someone chooses to be vegan. It’s their choice and it doesn’t affect or offend me. I choose to have a mixed diet. Because I’m financially able to, I have land and I raise my own pork and lamb, give it a lovely life and eat it. I buy my beef direct from a farmer half a mile down the road. The beef is expensive but worth it to me because he’s a good farmer and the cows are born on his land and like my animals never travel further than 25 mins in their life to the slaughterhouse. I wish everyone could only eat meat like we do but for the bulk of the population it’s impossible. You can’t raise your own lamb if you live in a council flat! I do agree though that we should only eat UK raised, non factory farmed meat and if that makes it more expensive, eat less of it. I don’t want to do the ‘I was raised in a shoebox’ line, but I was brought up working class, short of money. My mum was amazing at producing cheap meals- butter pie, corn beef hash, tomato gravy. We always had meat on a Sunday and if it was lamb we got one lamb cutlet each! It wasn’t until I was about 16 that I realised most people would have 3 or 4 cutlets on a plate. I suppose my point is, in those days everyone did eat less meat because it was so expensive whereas now, everyday is Christmas because of all the cheap, often imported, factory farmed stuff. So let’s ban that rather than the good UK reared stuff. And my final point. We have 18 acres of steep exposed rocky fields. You can’t get a tractor up and down it. Good luck turning that into arable I think
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: harmony on February 07, 2020, 09:14:36 am
good grief harmony. really?  do you choose to not understand stuff deliberately? i will not engage with someone deliberately demonstrating intolerance and ignorance. not here- life is too short and quite frankly the debate here is not having any effect on the real issues in the real world. I will continue to spend my valuable time in meaningful debates. Am very sad to repeatedly see this childish level of ignorance or is is arrogance? I have not played devils advocate on here (which pointedly farmers who post on animal welfare forums like to do). Seems farmers like to wind up people who choose not to eat meat for entirely understandable ethical reasons. why is that? TBH i dont care, your questions have recycled despite being given answers (more consise answers available online, dont take a genius to search). ive got the measure of some on here now.



I have already said on this thread that I respect your right not to eat meat. Because my view is different to yours does not make me ignorant or intolerant.


Being rude to me isn't going to change my mind on eating meat. Nor have any of your arguments in support of a ban on meat and keeping animals for meat. Has it made me see vegans differently? No, because I already accept they are entitled to a choice even if that is not my choice.











Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Buttermilk on February 07, 2020, 09:56:50 am
To me someone who chooses to be vegan and lives in an area which cannot provide a sustainable vegan diet is both hypocritical and selfish.  To get a balanced diet in such areas requires a lot of outside resources in food miles and artificial supplements.  This to me has nothing to do with saving the planet.

Natives to cold and barren areas had a diet that consisted of meat and blubber, both fresh and rotten, with little or no vegetables.  They used the skins of their animals and dogs as transport.  Having done this for many centuries having someone preach veganism to them is showing ignorance.

Places like Orkney and Shetland are halfway house sort of places where some growing plants are able to add to the diet but meat and milk are still essential to provide a sustainable healthy diet if you are not going to be importing a lot of food.

Being a vegan is a luxury only rich people can afford. 
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Polyanya on February 07, 2020, 11:15:51 am
This may come over as very flippant and its really not meant in that way but I think there are just too many people - bring on the pandemics  :coat:

Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: GBov on February 07, 2020, 11:27:43 am
I am not "having a go" at vegans Messyhoose, I am asking a question.

Have you, or anyone you know (vegan) ever grown your entire diet and/or sourced it totally locally?

So far, the answer has been 100% no from every vegan I have asked but many omnivores have said yes with proof enough for me to believe them.

Buttermilk, you nailed it with this..."Being a vegan is a luxury only rich people can afford. " 

The book "The Meat Fix" is a fantastic read, by the way, I highly recommend it to everyone. 

You do not need lots of land to raise meat, rabbits, guinea pigs, chickens, quail, and pigeons all take very little space and yes, that is providing them with room enough for their happiness. Been there, done that, working on doing it again asap. Allotment committees can teach snails about slow. :rant: 

With good soil and lots of organic enrichment (manure works a treat ;)) growing the rest of the omnivore diet takes more room than expected but can still be done, at least in part.  With bad soil and/or harsh conditions, just give up and raise more meat.  Humans can live on meat and fat alone in conditions that are shocking, wow my species amazes me all the time, what we can do, both good and bad.

Another question that bothers me.  Why are only animals considered worthy of not being eaten out of respect and not plants?  The Flora of our planet is every bit as dynamic and amazing as the Fauna, cutting edge research on how plants communicate is mind-blowing, it really is.

No one, NO ONE!!! can step out of the circle of life.  For us to live things must die, be it cow or carrot, things die that we may live.  There is no way out of that equation.  For us to even exist right now stars died in the distant past, how cool is it that we are all made of stardust?

My daughter says it best. "Life is a sexually transmitted disease with a one hundred percent mortality rate so live the best you can, you ain't around long."








Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: GBov on February 07, 2020, 11:31:15 am
This may come over as very flippant and its really not meant in that way but I think there are just too many people - bring on the pandemics  :coat:

Fertility rates are dropping like a rock, we are on the upper curve right before the downward slide. 

It amazes me that more people haven't started worrying about it yet but I bet when they do, women will get the blame! :roflanim:

The only problem with a pandemic is they are so random and I for one would like the people keeping nuclear power stations cool to be nice and healthy. 


Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: LittleLouandMissyMoo on February 10, 2020, 11:21:07 pm
Year 2070: 

"Ok team, put your harnesses on, we have 2 acres to plough today."
"Excuse me plough-person, but have you done the horsepower/"manpower" conversion calculation as I seem to think we could do with 50 of us for 2 acres per day rather than just us 4 !"
"Look, you all decided to not exploit animals in any way and to protect the environment and now there are no animals and, despite all our efforts on the CO2 front, the weather forecast says it's today or else.  So are you ready ... ?"
"What about the worms ?"
"... Pull"

Can I steal this for posting elsewhere (without your details) please? It's brillian!
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Polyanya on February 11, 2020, 11:49:56 am
Fair point GBov re power stations - I wonder how many people would sacrifice themselves if it would truly help the planet survive - I might be persuaded  :thinking:
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Fleecewife on February 11, 2020, 04:28:20 pm
Fair point GBov re power stations - I wonder how many people would sacrifice themselves if it would truly help the planet survive - I might be persuaded  :thinking:


My mind is boggling  :o   Do you mean you will volunteer yourself as power station fuel Polyanya? You know it might not be such a bad idea (not the volunteering bit)  If instead of all those expensive cremations using power, once we've finished with our bodies, we could just be lobbed into the nearest power station furnace  ;D  that would save some virgin forest from around the world, and the transport costs to reach our power stations.  Nor would we need the knackers for our deadstock  :idea:   Mm - I like it  :eyelashes:
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Polyanya on February 12, 2020, 08:47:30 pm
Do you think we should run with it and lobby our MP? Its really thinking outside the box isnt it  :roflanim:
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: arobwk on February 12, 2020, 10:30:49 pm
Year 2070: 

"Ok team, put your harnesses on, we have 2 acres to plough today."
"Excuse me plough-person, but have you done the horsepower/"manpower" conversion calculation as I seem to think we could do with 50 of us for 2 acres per day rather than just us 4 !"
"Look, you all decided to not exploit animals in any way and to protect the environment and now there are no animals and, despite all our efforts on the CO2 front, the weather forecast says it's today or else.  So are you ready ... ?"
"What about the worms ?"
"... Pull"

Can I steal this for posting elsewhere (without your details) please? It's brillian!


Of course you may [member=199799]LittleLouandMissyMoo[/member] but I would not describe it as brillian !  It would/could have been better if I'd sat back and thought about it.   :-\
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Fleecewife on February 12, 2020, 11:40:20 pm
Do you think we should run with it and lobby our MP? Its really thinking outside the box isnt it  :roflanim:


Oh definitely... and who needs a box anyway when a basket of willow withies would be much better.....
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: arobwk on February 13, 2020, 03:18:30 pm
Fair point GBov re power stations - I wonder how many people would sacrifice themselves if it would truly help the planet survive - I might be persuaded  :thinking:


My mind is boggling  :o   Do you mean you will volunteer yourself as power station fuel Polyanya? You know it might not be such a bad idea (not the volunteering bit)  If instead of all those expensive cremations using power, once we've finished with our bodies, we could just be lobbed into the nearest power station furnace  ;D  that would save some virgin forest from around the world, and the transport costs to reach our power stations.  Nor would we need the knackers for our deadstock  :idea:   Mm - I like it  :eyelashes:

I'm getting a bit worried about talk of sacrifice and volunteering (!), but it would make so much sense if all inedible dead-stock (animal or human) was used to help power the grid.  However, I would hope that my body's transport from hospital mortuary to power-station incinerator in due course will not be by a standard recycling lorry. 
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Fleecewife on February 13, 2020, 04:38:27 pm
Fair point GBov re power stations - I wonder how many people would sacrifice themselves if it would truly help the planet survive - I might be persuaded  :thinking:


My mind is boggling  :o   Do you mean you will volunteer yourself as power station fuel Polyanya? You know it might not be such a bad idea (not the volunteering bit)  If instead of all those expensive cremations using power, once we've finished with our bodies, we could just be lobbed into the nearest power station furnace  ;D  that would save some virgin forest from around the world, and the transport costs to reach our power stations.  Nor would we need the knackers for our deadstock  :idea:   Mm - I like it  :eyelashes:

I'm getting a bit worried about talk of sacrifice and volunteering (!), but it would make so much sense if all inedible dead-stock (animal or human) was used to help power the grid.  However, I would hope that my body's transport from hospital mortuary to power-station incinerator in due course will not be by a standard recycling lorry.


I quite fancy one last trip on a bike, tied on behind hubby, or if possible on the front with him operating the controls from behind.  I wonder what the law would be about wearing a crash helmet in that case  :thinking:   :yippee:
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Polyanya on February 13, 2020, 05:35:08 pm
It just goes to show how brilliant we all are at finding solutions to problems - where will it end?  ;D
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: arobwk on February 16, 2020, 10:11:05 pm
On the interesting subject of what to do with our bodies - rather than the boring subject of veganism - a US company is preparing to offer a human body composting service !!
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Fleecewife on February 16, 2020, 11:56:51 pm
On the interesting subject of what to do with our bodies - rather than the boring subject of veganism - a US company is preparing to offer a human body composting service !!


Surely burial is simpler and doesn't require big composting chambers, heat, fuel etc, just a hole in the ground and Nature does the rest?
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: arobwk on February 23, 2020, 04:55:09 pm
On the interesting subject of what to do with our bodies - rather than the boring subject of veganism - a US company is preparing to offer a human body composting service !!

Surely burial is simpler and doesn't require big composting chambers, heat, fuel etc, just a hole in the ground and Nature does the rest?

But burial just serves the local worms and any nearby junipers !
Not sure what the rules would be for using human body compost for plantings/mulching (compared to, say, humanure compost), but I do trust they will rattle out our bones before bagging up.

[ If the trend for micro gin distilleries keeps going, watch out for scrumping of juniper berries from your local cemetery any time soon ! ]
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: arobwk on February 23, 2020, 09:33:30 pm
On the interesting subject of what to do with our bodies - rather than the boring subject of veganism - a US company is preparing to offer a human body composting service !!

I have it written into my will that I'm to be fed to the pigs (i.e. properly recycled).  My lawyer wasn't happy with it, and apparently it isn't currently legal but if we really want to save the planet we need to think differently.  Why would it be ok for us to eat an animal but not ok for them to eat us?  Cremate me and I contribute to unnecessary waste of fuel and emissions; bury me and I'm taking up space that could be put to better use; chuck me in a ditch and I'll contaminate the water... feed me to the badgers or pigs and I'll be wholly recycled and have contributed something useful to the ecology lifecycle... and if you don't want to eat the pig that ate me, then feed me to a breeding boar and eat the offspring rather than the primary consumer! 

Ooo and umm - it's one way to go, but who are you expecting to dump your body into the "pig trough" and walk away to go brew up a cuppa while they wait for the piggies to do their thing before going back to retrieve the bony bits ??!!   :(
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Fleecewife on February 23, 2020, 10:13:46 pm
On the interesting subject of what to do with our bodies - rather than the boring subject of veganism - a US company is preparing to offer a human body composting service !!

I have it written into my will that I'm to be fed to the pigs (i.e. properly recycled).  My lawyer wasn't happy with it, and apparently it isn't currently legal but if we really want to save the planet we need to think differently.  Why would it be ok for us to eat an animal but not ok for them to eat us?  Cremate me and I contribute to unnecessary waste of fuel and emissions; bury me and I'm taking up space that could be put to better use; chuck me in a ditch and I'll contaminate the water... feed me to the badgers or pigs and I'll be wholly recycled and have contributed something useful to the ecology lifecycle... and if you don't want to eat the pig that ate me, then feed me to a breeding boar and eat the offspring rather than the primary consumer!


Humans rarely eat carrion, so perhaps pigs wouldn't be all that keen to eat you either.  Rather like the vultures supposed to eat the human bodies left out for them - apparently they balk at the tough old ones and leave them to mummify in the sun.  I'm sure if death were not such a taboo topic then we could work out a much better and more efficient, earth friendly way to dispose of the dead.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Buttermilk on February 24, 2020, 09:22:02 am
On the interesting subject of what to do with our bodies - rather than the boring subject of veganism - a US company is preparing to offer a human body composting service !!

I have it written into my will that I'm to be fed to the pigs (i.e. properly recycled).  My lawyer wasn't happy with it, and apparently it isn't currently legal but if we really want to save the planet we need to think differently.  Why would it be ok for us to eat an animal but not ok for them to eat us?  Cremate me and I contribute to unnecessary waste of fuel and emissions; bury me and I'm taking up space that could be put to better use; chuck me in a ditch and I'll contaminate the water... feed me to the badgers or pigs and I'll be wholly recycled and have contributed something useful to the ecology lifecycle... and if you don't want to eat the pig that ate me, then feed me to a breeding boar and eat the offspring rather than the primary consumer!
When people have left their bodies to hounds the only way round the law is to cremate the person and then feed the ashes.
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Polyanya on February 25, 2020, 09:31:20 am
Surely people aren't leaving their bodies for hounds - you are kidding right?
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Old Shep on February 27, 2020, 06:41:46 pm
Still on the "bodies" subject,  I met someone last year who is working with a company on dissolving bodies rather than cremation, a much more environmentally friendly option.  Apparently it will happen!
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: arobwk on February 27, 2020, 10:41:34 pm
Still on the "bodies" subject,  I met someone last year who is working with a company on dissolving bodies rather than cremation, a much more environmentally friendly option.  Apparently it will happen!

Dissolving with what ??
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: SallyintNorth on February 28, 2020, 08:16:53 am
One problem [member=132794]Scarlet.Dragon[/member] - I doubt any of us is fit to enter the food chain :/
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Fleecewife on February 28, 2020, 11:38:44 am
Yes, pigs don't leave much behind - just the wellies maybe?


Feeding humans, especially already dead ones therefore likely to have been ill, and to a closely related species such as the pig, would raise all sorts of problems for spread of disease.  We can see from China just how easy it is to fascilitate the evolution of cross species epidemics and even pandemics just by living too closely with those animals, and eating them is just asking for trouble.  Exposure to birds of prey and wild scavengers might be more acceptable, and would help those species to prosper (unless the 'body' died of bird 'flu!)
Title: Re: Is veganism a threat to the planet? *** contentious ***
Post by: Fleecewife on February 28, 2020, 07:35:51 pm
Bone meal for the fruit and veggie patch  :garden: