[Ermingtrude]

Hello lovely people. I have been here before for advice, and you have been very helpful, and I read the forum regularly, but as a novice, I don't add help.

I have a small herd of Zwartbles, who are fabulous. This is my 2nd year of lambs ( second as in last March, 2019). First lot, 4 lots of twins, all fine bar one set where the Mum had no milk, and they were bottle fed. They ( both castrated males, moved to a lawnmower life with a friend ) were fine. Missed a year out, and the following year was the same mums, and their daughters, with a different ram. 10 babies, one very early and despite efforts lasted to 3 weeks and died. All born in March 2019. All fine over spring and summer. Vaccines, worms, mums got clipped, I do regular worm counts on poo samples, no fly issues, I checked several times daily, and had to use TCP/dettol on one that looked buzzy, but no eggs seen on anyone. Everyone fine until December, when 3 of the lambs seemed to loose weight. No feed issues - they are on 15 acres of good grass, and I feed them pellets daily anyway. No sign of worms - did checks of poo from the lambs affected. Lambs suddenly loose weight, get thin, no eating issues, no diarrhoea, no blood issues from vet, no worm issues from checks. Took the 3 into the barn for care - hay, haylage, pellets, muesli, licks, water, you name it. 1 castrated male, 2 females, one identical twin, the other fine, all 3 different Mums. What am I missing ?

[twizzel]

When did they last have a fluke dose ?

[shep53]

Get more samples to vet and ask for  fluke eggs and coccidia  eggs  specifically  or blood sample to look for fluke.   Also get blood sample to check min & vit levels  for maybe  copper / COBOLT / iodine /selenium . Cobolt deficiency ( pine ) can cause starvation even when the lamb / hogget is eating well , if you speak to neighbours or a good vet they may tell you if the local area is deficient in any minerals .  Do they show problems in their hair or fleece  ( photo ) ?

[Buttermilk]

I too would dose for fluke.  Having lost a lot of lambs one year around this time and it only showed up on post mortem.

[Ermingtrude]

Thank you all - that is very helpful.

Dosed with Cydectin in September as per vet advice - poo samples were negative but they did say fluke wouldn't always show up - and as all the other samples have been negative, then a yearly dose for mixed / broad spectrum issues would be advised, given wet ground and that the lambs (and Mums) were all going to be permanent residents. 25 acres, and fields rotated regularly, never more than 15 sheep total at any time over the last 3 years, and before that, no sheep for over 10 years. Have checked with neighbours, no specific issues that they know of, although only one has sheep, the other 2 have cows. Asked vet when we first got the original sheep, who said they could tell me that the rate of coccidia was quite high in the area, which was one of the reasons I have been sending in regular poo samples, but none have shown anything. Fleeces all look fine, eyes and teeth fine, no coughs or snuffles ( took a book out to the stables, to listen in on them, then to the field to listen to the others - felt a bit like a stalker ! ) but I have taken fresh poo samples and bloods from the 3 thin ones, plus 3 of the others, and took those into the vets this morning for checks, including the deficiency things mentioned. Had grass tested in the summer ( I also have a couple of horses, so had it tested for them ) and digging out the report, nothing showed up. They have a lick ( Supalyx - red bucket ) but I haven't noticed anyone paying it much attention, and with only 13 of them, it hasn't been replaced recently - do they go *off* or loose potency ? or is it much like horses, who will only take it if they feel they need it ?  Should I redo the fluke drench just in case ?    (thank you in advance)

[shep53]

You are doing all you can , normally you have to ask for fluke eggs to be  looked for in a sample as they tend to only count worm & coccidia eggs  , a blood test gives a better result for fluke  . You say you did with cydectin which is a wormer only not a flukicide

[twizzel]

Which cydectin did they have? Triclamox does fluke but the other cydectin products don’t.

[Ermingtrude]

Just checked and it was Cydectin Triclamox sheep drench, used at 1ml per 5 kg, and I weighed them courtesy of a lovely friendly local haulier, who let me use his weigh scales ( the ones that do up to 100kg, fixed on the lifting arm of the lorry he does deliveries on, not the drive on platform ones) and then laughed his head off for an hour, as I got them on one by one, for checking, in return for a dozen eggs, and a home made lemon cake !

Checked with vet, they did fluke checks on the first few samples ( I've been sending them in every 4 months ) but the not the last 3, as it got missed off the form, which I didn't notice ( will be checking more carefully in future ) and the results are phoned through, and just said *nothing seen* - rather than anything more specific. My fault for not checking.

I haven't weighed the 3 in the stable this month, but I can't lift the boy, and struggle with the larger of the 2 girls. I can get the little girl off the ground but wouldn't want to walk too far. More than a 20kg bag of food, less than the dog (30kg) who I can't lift at all. Body score 2 but the littlest girl only just, but the vet said her skin was a little loose, suggesting fast weight loss rather than never having been fatter in the first place.   Currently awaiting blood test results from this morning, although the poo samples are done in-house at the time ( deterioration of the sample, so they get done ASAP apparently) and have all come back negative again. Not a surprise for the outside sheep, but the vet nurse who rang the results through, explained that fluke wouldn't always be seen in the samples, as it isn't always excreted. 45 mins on the internet looking up life cycles of sheep worms has left me not much better informed. She is checking with vet about re-dosing with a fluke drench, as apparently if they have a burden, and are symptomatic, a drench can cause more problems than it cures.

Have sheep, they said. They are really lovely and easy to keep, they said. I swear I am going grey.

[twizzel]

Fluke eggs only show up on poo samples when the fluke are at adult stage- I think I’m right in saying acute fluke is caused by immature fluke which haven’t got to the stage of laying eggs yet.


Have you blood tested for johnes and mv?

[Ermingtrude]

Thank you - yes, more reading on internet has left me better informed of worms than I needed. Makes sense with the wet fields and wet mild winter so far.  Land is all high level (1000 feet over sea level at the lowest, 1100 highest) but all gently sloping pasture, but the rain does leave it with soggy areas, which the vet said was ideal for fluke lifecycles.

Yes to testing for MV ( clear ) no to Johnes - now off to look that up on the internet as that is another new one to me.

Vet spoke about acute ( the sheep dies pretty much) and subacute (weight loss) versions of fluke issues - and has said that giving them a drench now could mean the sheep dies from the mass-movement of dead flukes in the system, rather than the symptoms of the issue itself. Doesn't sound like a great choice to me. I have asked about resistance, seeing as they were wormed, but they say they have no way to test for that.

[SallyintNorth]

Crikey, this is making me think we should dose for fluke preventatively...  Not a problem where I was up north, fluke was endemic so you’d want to drench for it no matter what, always October, March and once in between, and in the summer too if NADIS said it was that sort of summer..  Cattle always on housing and again 6 weeks later.  But where I am now, we mostly don’t get fluke, but it has been reported a couple of times in the last 6 years, when it’s been that sort of year...

[Ermingtrude]

It is so hard to know what to do for the best.  Regular, timed and specific worming regimes and all the associated problems with resistance, potential under-dosing, over-use of chemicals with no real need etc, versus regular testing and only treating if there is an issue, and you can still get it wrong. Vet advice was ( and still is ) to only treat if there is evidence of presence, but that won't work if the buggers can hide from me !

[shep53]

fluke start to lay eggs  10-12 wks after ingestion by the sheep so since you last dosed in sept you should have adults laying eggs IF YOU HAVE FLUKE ?  symptoms you can see are anaemia showing as very pale inside gums /mouth  and eyes  , some times swelling under the jaw .   If you do not give a second dose they will die if they have fluke   To check if the wormer /flukicide works you take samples and   get results then treat if positive and then after a set period which varies on the product used you take a second sample  which should be negative / very low  . As I said a blood test is a more accurate way to test for fluke than faeces as the eggs can be laid intermitantly , so test today and no eggs  test tomorrow  and eggs

[Ermingtrude]

Bloods came back with slightly raised liver enzymes, and also antibodies to fluke, but the vet said the antibodies can be there for several months even if fluke isn't, but the raised liver enzymes suggest fluke. They checked for anaemia and 2 showed mild, 1 fine. I did look at gums and tongues, but they looked the same as the others, so I wasn't sure - not obviously pale anyway. So armed with the suggested bottle of Fasimec Duo, they all got a dose this morning, with the plan to repeat the checks in a week and then a month, assuming they are ok, and if not, PM for actual visual liver check and then blood check the rest of them for fluke. Also suggested I do daily FEC's for the 3 inside, to see if there is anything showing up post-dosing with the Fasimec Duo. At least with them inside, gathering the samples won't mean spending a lot of time following them around the field with a glove.

[shep53]

Glad you are getting positive results so can proceed with treatment  , while I know you have to rely on your vet , a couple of points   Fasimec  duo and Cydectin triclamox  are the same flukacide so I hope you didn't have lots left  .  Triclabendazole  which is the flukicide does not work well if the liver is badly damaged so I would have probably gone for closantel . Why did they suggest a combination product when you have no worms according to your samples .  FEC samples every day why ? it is thought that animals with  adult fluke will still shed eggs for up to 3 wks after being  dosed as the eggs take time to travel through the bile ducts  , so to check for flukicide  resistance the advice is to look for eggs 3wks after treatment