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Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Ermingtrude on January 10, 2020, 03:43:05 am

Title: Underweight lambs
Post by: Ermingtrude on January 10, 2020, 03:43:05 am
Hello lovely people. I have been here before for advice, and you have been very helpful, and I read the forum regularly, but as a novice, I don't add help.

I have a small herd of Zwartbles, who are fabulous. This is my 2nd year of lambs ( second as in last March, 2019). First lot, 4 lots of twins, all fine bar one set where the Mum had no milk, and they were bottle fed. They ( both castrated males, moved to a lawnmower life with a friend ) were fine. Missed a year out, and the following year was the same mums, and their daughters, with a different ram. 10 babies, one very early and despite efforts lasted to 3 weeks and died. All born in March 2019. All fine over spring and summer. Vaccines, worms, mums got clipped, I do regular worm counts on poo samples, no fly issues, I checked several times daily, and had to use TCP/dettol on one that looked buzzy, but no eggs seen on anyone. Everyone fine until December, when 3 of the lambs seemed to loose weight. No feed issues - they are on 15 acres of good grass, and I feed them pellets daily anyway. No sign of worms - did checks of poo from the lambs affected. Lambs suddenly loose weight, get thin, no eating issues, no diarrhoea, no blood issues from vet, no worm issues from checks. Took the 3 into the barn for care - hay, haylage, pellets, muesli, licks, water, you name it. 1 castrated male, 2 females, one identical twin, the other fine, all 3 different Mums. What am I missing ?
Title: Re: Underweight lambs
Post by: twizzel on January 10, 2020, 08:05:08 am
When did they last have a fluke dose ?
Title: Re: Underweight lambs
Post by: shep53 on January 10, 2020, 10:11:48 am
Get more samples to vet and ask for  fluke eggs and coccidia  eggs  specifically  or blood sample to look for fluke.   Also get blood sample to check min & vit levels  for maybe  copper / COBOLT / iodine /selenium . Cobolt deficiency ( pine ) can cause starvation even when the lamb / hogget is eating well , if you speak to neighbours or a good vet they may tell you if the local area is deficient in any minerals .  Do they show problems in their hair or fleece  ( photo ) ?
Title: Re: Underweight lambs
Post by: Buttermilk on January 10, 2020, 12:04:19 pm
I too would dose for fluke.  Having lost a lot of lambs one year around this time and it only showed up on post mortem.
Title: Re: Underweight lambs
Post by: Ermingtrude on January 10, 2020, 01:47:21 pm
Thank you all - that is very helpful.

Dosed with Cydectin in September as per vet advice - poo samples were negative but they did say fluke wouldn't always show up - and as all the other samples have been negative, then a yearly dose for mixed / broad spectrum issues would be advised, given wet ground and that the lambs (and Mums) were all going to be permanent residents. 25 acres, and fields rotated regularly, never more than 15 sheep total at any time over the last 3 years, and before that, no sheep for over 10 years. Have checked with neighbours, no specific issues that they know of, although only one has sheep, the other 2 have cows. Asked vet when we first got the original sheep, who said they could tell me that the rate of coccidia was quite high in the area, which was one of the reasons I have been sending in regular poo samples, but none have shown anything. Fleeces all look fine, eyes and teeth fine, no coughs or snuffles ( took a book out to the stables, to listen in on them, then to the field to listen to the others - felt a bit like a stalker ! ) but I have taken fresh poo samples and bloods from the 3 thin ones, plus 3 of the others, and took those into the vets this morning for checks, including the deficiency things mentioned. Had grass tested in the summer ( I also have a couple of horses, so had it tested for them ) and digging out the report, nothing showed up. They have a lick ( Supalyx - red bucket ) but I haven't noticed anyone paying it much attention, and with only 13 of them, it hasn't been replaced recently - do they go *off* or loose potency ? or is it much like horses, who will only take it if they feel they need it ?  Should I redo the fluke drench just in case ?    (thank you in advance)
Title: Re: Underweight lambs
Post by: shep53 on January 10, 2020, 02:28:02 pm
You are doing all you can , normally you have to ask for fluke eggs to be  looked for in a sample as they tend to only count worm & coccidia eggs  , a blood test gives a better result for fluke  . You say you did with cydectin which is a wormer only not a flukicide
Title: Re: Underweight lambs
Post by: twizzel on January 10, 2020, 03:48:34 pm
Which cydectin did they have? Triclamox does fluke but the other cydectin products don’t.
Title: Re: Underweight lambs
Post by: Ermingtrude on January 10, 2020, 04:23:14 pm
Just checked and it was Cydectin Triclamox sheep drench, used at 1ml per 5 kg, and I weighed them courtesy of a lovely friendly local haulier, who let me use his weigh scales ( the ones that do up to 100kg, fixed on the lifting arm of the lorry he does deliveries on, not the drive on platform ones) and then laughed his head off for an hour, as I got them on one by one, for checking, in return for a dozen eggs, and a home made lemon cake !

Checked with vet, they did fluke checks on the first few samples ( I've been sending them in every 4 months ) but the not the last 3, as it got missed off the form, which I didn't notice ( will be checking more carefully in future ) and the results are phoned through, and just said *nothing seen* - rather than anything more specific. My fault for not checking.

I haven't weighed the 3 in the stable this month, but I can't lift the boy, and struggle with the larger of the 2 girls. I can get the little girl off the ground but wouldn't want to walk too far. More than a 20kg bag of food, less than the dog (30kg) who I can't lift at all. Body score 2 but the littlest girl only just, but the vet said her skin was a little loose, suggesting fast weight loss rather than never having been fatter in the first place.   Currently awaiting blood test results from this morning, although the poo samples are done in-house at the time ( deterioration of the sample, so they get done ASAP apparently) and have all come back negative again. Not a surprise for the outside sheep, but the vet nurse who rang the results through, explained that fluke wouldn't always be seen in the samples, as it isn't always excreted. 45 mins on the internet looking up life cycles of sheep worms has left me not much better informed. She is checking with vet about re-dosing with a fluke drench, as apparently if they have a burden, and are symptomatic, a drench can cause more problems than it cures.

Have sheep, they said. They are really lovely and easy to keep, they said. I swear I am going grey.
Title: Re: Underweight lambs
Post by: twizzel on January 10, 2020, 04:57:13 pm
Fluke eggs only show up on poo samples when the fluke are at adult stage- I think I’m right in saying acute fluke is caused by immature fluke which haven’t got to the stage of laying eggs yet.


Have you blood tested for johnes and mv?
Title: Re: Underweight lambs
Post by: Ermingtrude on January 10, 2020, 06:33:52 pm
Thank you - yes, more reading on internet has left me better informed of worms than I needed. Makes sense with the wet fields and wet mild winter so far.  Land is all high level (1000 feet over sea level at the lowest, 1100 highest) but all gently sloping pasture, but the rain does leave it with soggy areas, which the vet said was ideal for fluke lifecycles.

Yes to testing for MV ( clear ) no to Johnes - now off to look that up on the internet as that is another new one to me.

Vet spoke about acute ( the sheep dies pretty much) and subacute (weight loss) versions of fluke issues - and has said that giving them a drench now could mean the sheep dies from the mass-movement of dead flukes in the system, rather than the symptoms of the issue itself. Doesn't sound like a great choice to me. I have asked about resistance, seeing as they were wormed, but they say they have no way to test for that.
Title: Re: Underweight lambs
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 10, 2020, 07:36:43 pm
Crikey, this is making me think we should dose for fluke preventatively...  Not a problem where I was up north, fluke was endemic so you’d want to drench for it no matter what, always October, March and once in between, and in the summer too if NADIS said it was that sort of summer..  Cattle always on housing and again 6 weeks later.  But where I am now, we mostly don’t get fluke, but it has been reported a couple of times in the last 6 years, when it’s been that sort of year... :-\
Title: Re: Underweight lambs
Post by: Ermingtrude on January 10, 2020, 07:52:06 pm
It is so hard to know what to do for the best.  Regular, timed and specific worming regimes and all the associated problems with resistance, potential under-dosing, over-use of chemicals with no real need etc, versus regular testing and only treating if there is an issue, and you can still get it wrong. Vet advice was ( and still is ) to only treat if there is evidence of presence, but that won't work if the buggers can hide from me !
Title: Re: Underweight lambs
Post by: shep53 on January 10, 2020, 08:15:47 pm
fluke start to lay eggs  10-12 wks after ingestion by the sheep so since you last dosed in sept you should have adults laying eggs IF YOU HAVE FLUKE ?  symptoms you can see are anaemia showing as very pale inside gums /mouth  and eyes  , some times swelling under the jaw .   If you do not give a second dose they will die if they have fluke ???  To check if the wormer /flukicide works you take samples and   get results then treat if positive and then after a set period which varies on the product used you take a second sample  which should be negative / very low  . As I said a blood test is a more accurate way to test for fluke than faeces as the eggs can be laid intermitantly , so test today and no eggs  test tomorrow  and eggs
Title: Re: Underweight lambs
Post by: Ermingtrude on January 11, 2020, 01:33:18 pm
Bloods came back with slightly raised liver enzymes, and also antibodies to fluke, but the vet said the antibodies can be there for several months even if fluke isn't, but the raised liver enzymes suggest fluke. They checked for anaemia and 2 showed mild, 1 fine. I did look at gums and tongues, but they looked the same as the others, so I wasn't sure - not obviously pale anyway. So armed with the suggested bottle of Fasimec Duo, they all got a dose this morning, with the plan to repeat the checks in a week and then a month, assuming they are ok, and if not, PM for actual visual liver check and then blood check the rest of them for fluke. Also suggested I do daily FEC's for the 3 inside, to see if there is anything showing up post-dosing with the Fasimec Duo. At least with them inside, gathering the samples won't mean spending a lot of time following them around the field with a glove.
Title: Re: Underweight lambs
Post by: shep53 on January 11, 2020, 08:32:16 pm
Glad you are getting positive results so can proceed with treatment  , while I know you have to rely on your vet , a couple of points   Fasimec  duo and Cydectin triclamox  are the same flukacide so I hope you didn't have lots left  .  Triclabendazole  which is the flukicide does not work well if the liver is badly damaged so I would have probably gone for closantel . Why did they suggest a combination product when you have no worms according to your samples .  FEC samples every day why ? it is thought that animals with  adult fluke will still shed eggs for up to 3 wks after being  dosed as the eggs take time to travel through the bile ducts  , so to check for flukicide  resistance the advice is to look for eggs 3wks after treatment
Title: Re: Underweight lambs
Post by: Ermingtrude on January 11, 2020, 09:04:04 pm
I greatly appreciate your input and information Shep53, you ( and others ) have been incredibly helpful.

I did have some Cydectin from last Septembers treatment, but on measuring it out, not enough for all 13 sheep to be dosed, and it had a BB date of the end of this month, so I opted to get a new one, and it was simply that the Vets didn't have a small bottle of it, that it was suggested to try the Fasimec for the same effect. Use of it on already liver-damaged sheep wasn't mentioned, just the effectiveness of the wormer on all ages/stages of fluke, which some of the others don't have. I haven't heard of Closantel, so will be looking that one up, as I don't remember the vet mentioning it either as an option. Their reasoning behind the daily FECs on the 3 sheep was to check for other worms that may not have shown in other FEC's due to low level, and to see if any fluke is visible once they had been treated, to check for resistance, given they got treated in September. Having read your replies, and the scary amount of info on the internet, it seems a little pointless, given that treating today isn't going to seemingly stop them getting re-infected in a weeks time from the fields, and what you say about the time from laying to appearance in samples.  I have asked about things I can do to stop reinfestation, but apparently that is more a *weekday* question, and not one I am going to get a reply to on a weekend.  The sheep themselves are looking pretty chipper again, eating well, looking bright and alert, and dosing them was a struggle, which compared to taking the blood samples a few days ago, which was much easier, I am taking to be a good sign, so I have fingers crossed for them.
Thank you so much for your continued help in this.
Title: Re: Underweight lambs
Post by: shep53 on January 11, 2020, 09:22:02 pm
Fluke need mud snails to complete their life cycle and the snails need damp , so fence off any open ditches or water filled hollows and use troughs for water instead , keep areas around water troughs dry ( also good for feet ). Improve drainage so you have no standing water for long periods . Ducks or geese will eat the snails
Title: Re: Underweight lambs
Post by: Ermingtrude on January 11, 2020, 09:45:53 pm
There is one field with a long deep ditch on one long border, gravel bottom, no greenery in it, not ever seen sheep in it, as there is water in troughs in that ( and all ) fields for the sheep and the horses, but that could well be the source. But given I am in South West Wales, wet pasture and slightly sloshy fields are fairly normal, even though I am well over 1000 feet, and on good draining land. I can move the fence to put the ditch outside the field, and I rotate the fields so nowhere gets muddy to the point you need wellies rather than decent shoes - maybe rotating the fields too often ? Nowhere has actual standing water ( ok, the yard does, but that just helps wash the dog's paws ) but I do see a lot of slugs, not sure I have seen snails, but they don't seem so obvious, and a lot smaller according to internet.

I continue to be very appreciative of your help and advice.
Title: Re: Underweight lambs
Post by: Backinwellies on January 12, 2020, 06:33:07 pm
I'm amazed vet didn't suggest an alternative flukicide  ……  any Triclabendazole flukicide should be alternated with another type 9same as wormers) ….  I should know I lost 5 well grown  ewe lambs  to fluke (after treating with only Triclabendazole) 

You seem to be spending a fortune on testing …. hope it's worth it.
Title: Re: Underweight lambs
Post by: Ermingtrude on January 12, 2020, 09:59:03 pm
They did say about rotating types of wormer, but also talked about the fact that as they got dosed in September, the time span and likely re-infestation, and something about resistance not happening that quickly in just a few generations ( no, I didn't follow that one either ) which would mean they would recommend one that did all the life stages, rather than one that just did some, and it was more likely the older part of the worm cycle was causing the issue, not the eggs/babies.  It seemed to make sense, and although I am not new to FEC's and worming regimes / resistance etc, having had horses for more years than I would like to admit to, sheep are still new to me, along with their various worm hosts and the such. Spent 2 hours yesterday looking for snails !

The blood tests themselves are not cheap ( is anything, at the vets ! ) , but I take them myself and drop them to the vet surgery, so that saves a visit and time fee. Same for the FEC's, I have sent in several over the last few years, including 2 in the last week, but other than that, I do them myself, so nothing more than my own time.

I am sorry to hear you lost some to the same thing - I am hoping my 3 will recover, and live happy lives as pet lawnmowers, and will hopefully come up with a more effective way of managing fluke issues in the future. I am just north of Carmarthen, so not that far from you, but the vets only mentioned coccidia as a local *issue*, and on high ground, I didn't think of fluke as an issue as it wasn't low level flood plain type ground, and nothing showed in FECs Live and learn, and I hope I am learning.