Smallholders Insurance from Greenlands

Author Topic: Land size for smallholding  (Read 2155 times)

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
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Re: Land size for smallholding
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2019, 12:45:00 pm »
I agree with Fleecewife about most of that, but an allotment won't solve your problem.

You want to actually live outside London and that is your difficulty.

If you can work elsewhere or from home that is your starting point.

Get another job outwith the City or elsewhere in the UK where land with a house on it is less expensive.(don't try to find land and camp on it in the hope of getting planning consent - rarely happens)

Once you have that, then you can decide what to do with the land - even a third of an acre will let you have some fruit bushes and trees and a herb garden.  and lots of wildlife!  :excited: :excited:
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

chrismahon

  • Joined Dec 2011
  • Gascony, France
Re: Land size for smallholding
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2019, 12:55:52 pm »
Significantly cheaper will be a house with land that isn't attached to it, but is some short distance away. Alternatively, for the same money you could have a lot more land. Security will always be an issue unfortunately.

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
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Re: Land size for smallholding
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2019, 08:45:27 pm »
Significantly cheaper will be a house with land that isn't attached to it, but is some short distance away. Alternatively, for the same money you could have a lot more land. Security will always be an issue unfortunately.
Not necessarily.  My house sits in 2 fifths of an acre and it was just sold as a bungalow with a large garden.  It was completely unfenced. It has the potential for another house in the grounds although that isn't my intention.  It is now fenced so my dogs are safe and I intend to have raised beds for vegetables and I'll plant fruit bushes and climbers round the fence. I had a large shed built at the back for my quail an I'll have another one put up for a few chickens soon.

Why do you think security is always an issue as a matter of interest? I have no security issues here and I'm on the edge of the village at the end of a farm road.  My noisy dogs would keep anybody away. :innocent:  :roflanim:
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

pharnorth

  • Joined Nov 2013
  • Cambridgeshire
Re: Land size for smallholding
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2019, 09:22:15 pm »
Hmmm. Well sadly because with all the cctv in towns the Countryside an hour commute from London is rife with people rifling through your belongings.

Springbeans

  • Joined Sep 2019
Re: Land size for smallholding
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2019, 03:29:07 am »
Thanks for all the advice :thumbsup:

I'm confused now :thinking: can anyone tell me how you managed to live on your smallholding or get permission to? Especially if you've no animals and/or don't earn an income from it?

Fleecewife moving to another cheaper town unfortunately isn't an option, I simply don't want to give my salary to landlords anymore, I want my own property, even with a mortgage it would at least be going back into the property, although I wouldn't buy anything with a mortgage, if I couldn't afford to buy it outright I wouldn't buy it at all. Hence why any land I get won't be much as it is very expensive on the outskirts of London. I love the country life and even if I had loads of money I'd still buy land and not a house in the city.

It's important I stay near London most importantly so I can be near my family. I could look at working from home yes.

Amy ideas on how I can get permission to live on a bit of land if I purchase it? In a caravan/mobile home?

Also does anyone know about a 4yr rule? I read somewhere if I put a caravan there after 4 yrs if undiscovered I'd get permission?




 

« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 03:31:47 am by Springbeans »

cambee

  • Joined Feb 2017
  • High Peak
Re: Land size for smallholding
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2019, 07:12:54 am »
Hi Springbeans there are loads of threads on this forum with people querying whether they can put up a caravan etc on land they buy to live there and all the advice says not. Just search the word ‘caravan’ in the forum search button and they’ll all come up. There’s lots of experienced advice. As for your dream of buying land just outside London, I would have thought that you’d therefore be talking about the Home Counties and that any parcel of land would be very expensive anyway? Plus you’ll already know how much it costs to commute to London from outside- extortionate. To put things into context, we sold a family detached home just outside London and with the proceeds we bought 18 acres plus a house, outbuildings and a holiday let in Derbyshire. So my advice would follow Fleecewife - think about moving if that’s possible. As for making money, my husband worked another 12 years after we moved on a good wage. He has only recently retired. We keep sheep for lamb, pigs for pork and chickens for eggs. Even with selling produce we still make a loss after 3 years. The only thing in profit is the holiday let, that pays all the bills. Our land is too steep to grow vegetables etc so I can’t comment on profitability there. However, we do love our lifestyle, keep very fit and busy and that’s where the true profit is. Why don’t you try an allotment initially (just to check that you have green fingers!) then start a saving plan to realise your dream in a few years outside the London area. It took us 15 years from plan to fruition (though we were also raising a family so that delays things). Good luck with your dreams.

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: Land size for smallholding
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2019, 10:27:26 am »
Most of the people here “manage to live on their smallholding” because they bought a smallholding with a house on it.

Have a read of the Chapter 7 stuff under This Land is Ours, it takes you through all the stuff about 4 and 10 year rules.  But to put it simply, if you were able to build a dwelling and live in it for 4 years without planning giving you an enforcement notice, and can prove that you’ve lived there for four years and have not behaved fraudulently, the planning office would lose the right to take enforcement action.  It’s not the same as planning permission, you have no rights to extend, to rebuild, or anything like that, just your use of the existing building becomes lawful after 4 years if there has been no enforcement action.  If you are living in something other than a built dwelling, then it’s 10 years.

I suspect you would have little chance of going undetected for that length of time within an hour of the capital :/.

Absolutely echo the suggestions to get an allotment and see how much you really love all the hard work, dirty hands, filthy clothes, etc, before investing all your hard-earned and then finding you’ve taken on a millstone.

If it’s just about wanting to be able to be in a more country environment and not wanting all your salary going to landlords, what about looking for a park home?
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: Land size for smallholding
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2019, 10:38:24 am »
Another suggestion would be to join WWOOF UK and do some WWOOFing with the hosts in and around London.  I did a quick search and found several; here’s one.

You’ll learn a lot about what’s involved, and will get “in” with the right sort of people to hear about any opportunities. You might even find somewhere that you can buy into.  I ended up buying a farm with someone I’d WWOOFed for :)
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Backinwellies

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Re: Land size for smallholding
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2019, 03:48:34 pm »


I'm confused now :thinking: can anyone tell me how you managed to live on your smallholding or get permission to? Especially if you've no animals and/or don't earn an income from it?

Do you really want to 'smallhold' …. or just get a cheap place buy to live?  If the former then Sally's idea of WOOFing is a good one …. try it out and see how much you like it.
  If the latter then I'm afraid there are no shortcuts … its move to the country proper where you could get a house and land or stay where you are and save hard for a move in the future.

Land an hour from London is likely to be 30,000 per acre and be in green belt …  can't see you getting away with living in a caravan for 10 years without being spoted.
Linda

Don't wrestle with pigs, they will love it and you will just get all muddy.

Let go of who you are and become who you are meant to be.

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doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
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Re: Land size for smallholding
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2019, 04:54:47 pm »
"I'm confused now :thinking: can anyone tell me how you managed to live on your smallholding or get permission to? Especially if you've no animals and/or don't earn an income from it?  as a few people have said, we didn't buy land with a view to putting a house/caravan etc on it.  We bought a house with land attached with a view to raising animals/growing vegetables/fruit.  As I said mine is 2 fifths of an acre, I have gradually downsized as I get older from 24 acres in 1994 to moving to a smaller house with a small paddock this year 25 years later

It's important I stay near London most importantly so I can be near my family. I could look at working from home yes. That sounds the most sensible idea to me.  But as more than one person has said, prices around London are astronomical, so perhaps you could start with just a large garden?  Or maybe sell your present home and rent one with a garden? https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property/London.html

Amy ideas on how I can get permission to live on a bit of land if I purchase it? In a caravan/mobile home? Highly unlikely - especially near London

Also does anyone know about a 4yr rule? I read somewhere if I put a caravan there after 4 yrs if undiscovered I'd get permission? The planning folk are on the lookout for that sort of thing all the time - it's their job to stop any untoward building in green belt areas
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

mart6

  • Joined Sep 2014
  • Notts / Yorkshire border
Re: Land size for smallholding
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2019, 08:02:44 pm »
Quote
Also does anyone know about a 4yr rule? I read somewhere if I put a caravan there after 4 yrs if undiscovered I'd get permission? The planning folk are on the lookout for that sort of thing all the time - it's their job to stop any untoward building in green belt areas

The 4 year rule applies to a building if you make it your home with facilities toilet bath/shower and its not discovered  then it can lawfully become your home if you apply for LDC

Couple of links giving a bit more detail

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=19&ved=2ahUKEwjGqevB1-DmAhVGPcAKHbktBT8QFjASegQIBhAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fecab.planningportal.co.uk%2Fuploads%2F1app%2Fguidance%2Fguidance_note-lawful_development_certificates.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3HsrjgOFIE308mBWrWS9bu

http://planninglawblog.blogspot.com/2012/03/4-year-rule.html

For a caravan its 10 years
search planning portal for LDC  or enforcement appeals to see whats involved.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 08:13:49 pm by mart6 »

Steph Hen

  • Joined Jul 2013
  • Angus Scotland.
Re: Land size for smallholding
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2020, 07:25:26 pm »
Hello, just wondering about your situation? Is it essential you're an hour from the capital for commuting/caring or just so it's quick home after a Sunday visit to your parents? I'd think this location would still be very expensive to rent or buy and from what I've been told (friends in Cambridge, Slough, reading, Harpenden, etc,) allotments take years on waiting lists.
Could you stay in London but downsize to a room in a shared house or live with family to save some cash for a few years or something?
I have relatives in Halifax and property there is very cheap, I expect you'd rent or buy a house with land for half what you'd pay near London. But you'd be 2-3 hours from London so not something for every day commuting. As for getting a caravan/house hidden for a few years, neighbours can be incredibly nosy and militant; I've had different friends reported for all sorts like leaving a horse trailer parked in a field for a few months.  As an unfortunate general rule, locals don't tend to be too accommodating of 'the vegan moved here from London', until you correct their prejudices; show you're open minded, work hard and want to be part of the community.  Good luck  :thumbsup:

Springbeans

  • Joined Sep 2019
Re: Land size for smallholding
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2020, 08:37:17 pm »
Thanks for all the advice and a very Happy New year to all  :excited: :hug: sorry for delay responding was away for the new yr.

Having thought about it all I don't think this land thing is going to work for me unfortunately  ???  If I can't live on it even if I grow stuff etc etc then it's no point, I don't think it wise to buy it and then get into years long struggle for a permit etc, and I can't afford one with a house on it already, prices down here are extortionate.

Living with family isn't an option they all live up north where I was born and I've not had contact with them for years and wouldn't now we don't have that type of close relationship, my kids were born and live here in London and I don't want to leave them or be too far from them. I could stay with friends but I'm too proud to do that I'm a grown woman now not a teenage student and would feel out of place. Plus my kids although grown sometimes visit me and it wouldn't be the same if I were in a shared house.

Steph allotments are the same here virtually impossible to get, the very few available are claimed by years old residents and rarely become available, when they do the waiting list is decades long. But even if I had one I couldn't find the time to use it, I'd much rather go tinker in my friends gardens when I have the time to visit, a couple have things planting out back and a greenhouse which I help out in.

This might sound contradictory to me saying I'd not go further north but I would consider moving out of the country altogether if it got me out of this cycle. I've a friend whom bought acres of land with olive trees on it in Spain yrs ago after being unable to afford it here and her kids visit regularly for holidays. Although now with brexit that plan might go capoot too.

My youngest is almost out of uni and once he is I think I could consider somewhere abroad if options still remain after brexit, I'll have to look into it. My kids grew up traveling a lot we go away somewhere new every year and they all have the wanderlust, I'd be lucky if even 1 remains settled in the UK by the time I'm very old, so I don't think me moving would bother them but we still see each other every other week so I don't think I'd give that up just yet but it's an option I'll be exploring.

Renting just isn't for me. I should have put down a deposit for a house yrs ago but chose to rent instead because I didn't want to commit to one place and it gave me the freedom to move and live in different places, I've lived all over London but it came at a price.

I believe renting should only really be for younger people, once you have a family buying should be the plan. When I rent I've given all my years of hard earned cash to a landlord instead of investing in my family and home, it's difficult to call anywhere home because its only on loan on a monthly basis till the landlord decides to sell it etc. Not to mention I have to carry on paying rent even when on holiday and any payments missed they would simply move someone else in. The biggest pitfall however is that there would be nothing to leave my kids.

Well done to everybody whom decided to buy land instead of a house in the city, the better option I reckon :thumbsup: just wish I realised it way back when I could've done the same :idea:


doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
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Re: Land size for smallholding
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2020, 01:15:40 pm »
What about Scotland?  :innocent: :innocent:  Plenty houses with land up here and much lower prices than London.
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

Backinwellies

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Re: Land size for smallholding
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2020, 06:21:39 pm »
If your youngest is leaving Uni soon then now is the time to think about your own future ( offspring will not opt to stay near you when the world is calling) .   What do you really want to do?  Where do you really want to do it? (London area is not the area for a life in the countryside)   

Try  Help X  and WOOFing sites and go and try things out

maybe you would like to do Uni (if you haven't already)?
Linda

Don't wrestle with pigs, they will love it and you will just get all muddy.

Let go of who you are and become who you are meant to be.

http://nantygroes.blogspot.co.uk/
www.nantygroes.co.uk
Nantygroes  facebook page

 

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