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Author Topic: What small breed dog gives birth with the least chance of problems?  (Read 4786 times)

GBov

  • Joined Nov 2019
I am looking into getting my mum a puppy and other than needing something small and wanting a bitch, she is pretty flexible as to breed.  And, as small dogs look like costing us rather a lot of money, it would be nice to breed her girl when she grows up, that way the kids and I can have one as well.  The time payment plan, as it were. lol

Breeding comes with risks though and I want to get her a companion breed that is ultra-healthy and pups with few, if any, complications.

Reading up on breeds of dogs though, the bit of information I want is missing, nothing even mentions breeding.  Have found only one mention that Shih Tzu (which mum loves) have narrow pelvises so have complications which is not a lot to go on.

Does anyone know what small dog breeds breed the easiest? And are NOT terriers!


Scarlet.Dragon

  • Joined May 2015
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: What small breed dog gives birth with the least chance of problems?
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2019, 10:20:35 pm »
Why not consider a rescue rather than buying bred pup?  The rescues are desperate for good permanent homes and, speaking as someone who's always adopted, I've never had a bad one (even the boomerang mutt settled with us eventually, albeit he took his time... you couldn't really blame  him for not unpacking his bag first night; we were the 8th home we knew about).
Excellence is the result of caring more than others think is wise, risking more than others think is safe, dreaming more than others think is practical and expecting more than others think is possible.

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
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Re: What small breed dog gives birth with the least chance of problems?
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2019, 10:43:17 pm »
Why not consider a rescue rather than buying bred pup?  The rescues are desperate for good permanent homes and, speaking as someone who's always adopted, I've never had a bad one (even the boomerang mutt settled with us eventually, albeit he took his time... you couldn't really blame  him for not unpacking his bag first night; we were the 8th home we knew about).
Because any responsible rescue society will neuter a dog before rehoming it.

And any responsible owner will only breed to improve the breed they have,

Anything can happen, and as you rightly say, there are risks and your mum could actually lose her much loved pet in the process.

I am an experienced owner/breeder/judge as well as having worked my breed.   Even so I almost lost my champion bitch when she started to abort a few days before she was due.  Being experienced I recognised the symptoms, phoned my vet, drove half an hour on a dark wet night, and between us we managed to save her and 4 of her 7 pups, although it was touch and go.  I lost money on that litter and nearly lost my girl.  It was not her first litter either so no cause to think there might be problems.  I'd have been devastated if I'd lost her.  I haven't bred either her or my younger one since, despite having my own stud dog, and have just had the younger one spayed.

Many breeds have recommended health checks - eye ones in spaniels are usually done every year, or every two years depending on which.  Some breeds need hip and/or elbow x-ray scoring(labradors).  It's not just a case of going to your vet for a general health check although that is important too.
You can of course not do these tests but if any resulting pups develop inherited issues then the breeder can be held liable.  It's just not worth chancing it in my opinion.

If your mum wants a dog get her the best you can afford without having to rely on breeding in 2 years time. There are many websites which will help you decide which breed is best for her -
Iams https://www.iams.com/breedselector/
James Wellbeloved https://www.wellbeloved.com
Purina https://www.purina.co.uk/dogs/dog-breeds/breed-selector
and the Kennel Club. https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/findabreed/Default.aspx

Good luck finding the right dog for her
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

GBov

  • Joined Nov 2019
Re: What small breed dog gives birth with the least chance of problems?
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2019, 07:56:05 am »
Scarlet Dragon, every dog we have ever had in my not short life has been a rescue but having looked at what is available - I can read between the lines on dogs up for rescue - nothing will suit her so if we have to buy, we may as well get exactly what we want.

Doganjo, thank you for that information, the breed selectors are as bad as the rest though about health, not a single question about healthy. 

Mum bred toy poodles a loooooong time ago so she knows the risks but you are right, it is always a risk.  Reproduction for ANY species is dangerous, even our own.

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
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Re: What small breed dog gives birth with the least chance of problems?
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2019, 09:19:07 am »
Scarlet Dragon, every dog we have ever had in my not short life has been a rescue but having looked at what is available - I can read between the lines on dogs up for rescue - nothing will suit her so if we have to buy, we may as well get exactly what we want.

Doganjo, thank you for that information, the breed selectors are as bad as the rest though about health, not a single question about healthy. 

Mum bred toy poodles a loooooong time ago so she knows the risks but you are right, it is always a risk.  Reproduction for ANY species is dangerous, even our own.
If your mother knows toy poodles then why not buy one of those.  You could always breed boodle crosses - theysell for stupid money. I was not just discussing health requirements, but also healthiness.  There are very good reasons why heaklth requiremetns are in place. They are inherited and if you buy from a non-responsible breeder they may not have them checked and the condition then perpetuates when you also breed on without checking.
As I stated in my earlier post, the aim of breeding is to improve the breed, not to make money.  A well bred bitch, brought up well, fed well, health checked well, mated to a similar stud, producing good puppies, may not create profit, in fact is purely forced saving.

I have raraely made money on breeding except when my Brittany bitch produced 11 pups and did not require supplementary feeding.  Many of those became champions, one an Internation champion, another two Irish champions, my own producing my own champion stud dog

Buy well, breed well, feed well and you may recoup your outgoings
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: What small breed dog gives birth with the least chance of problems?
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2019, 11:24:24 am »
I’m reading the OPs plan as “Buy one, breed X, keep 2, sell X-2”, not “become a breeder”.

If the original bitch costs £600, they use a stud dog whose fee is the sale price of 1 puppy, the bitch has 4 puppies and the 2 spares sell for £500 each, then the family end up with 3 dogs for a net outlay of the original £600 less any net profit from the litter (which I guess would be somewhere between none and a couple of hundred), plus all the fun of having a litter.  (And yes, all the work and possibly heartache too.  But they do know what they are letting themselves in for.)

The alternative being an outlay of £1800 for the desired 3 dogs.

I’d feel differently if the family had never bred puppies before, but as the mum has experience of breeding, I don’t see a lot of harm in the plan.  I do see how this domestic-scale breeding could annoy a professional breeder, but it’s just one litter, they are experienced, and they want to keep 2 of the pups for themselves.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 11:26:19 am by SallyintNorth »
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Me

  • Joined Feb 2014
  • Wild West
Re: What small breed dog gives birth with the least chance of problems?
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2019, 12:17:40 pm »
Why not jut buy a cheap small dog and forget the breeding?

There is a reason CKC and Bichons are so beloved by puppy farmers.... (cost/benefit)

GBov

  • Joined Nov 2019
Re: What small breed dog gives birth with the least chance of problems?
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2019, 01:01:15 pm »
Why not jut buy a cheap small dog and forget the breeding?

There is a reason CKC and Bichons are so beloved by puppy farmers.... (cost/benefit)

Have you seen the price of mongrels?  Never mind purebred pups, its like, OMG HOW MUCH???

I have bred thousands of rabbits, hundreds of pigs, many goats and uncounted numbers of poultry but dogs are new to me, breeding wise.  But as mum bred poodles in the 60s we have that experience to draw on.

"Breed the best, eat the rest" doesn't work with pets so I am trying to get the right match for us all, size, temperament, health, trainability, and low energy. 

I like what I read about Cotton de Tulear so I just looked up health in them and in toy poodles and Shih Tzu.

Blimey, are ANY small dogs problem free?  No wonder out crossing is such a big thing now, if those are the kinds of issues breeders are dealing with.

And I thought breeding for better feet was a project in my rabbits, no wonder you say breeding to improve the breed is so important Doganjo!

 

twizzel

  • Joined Apr 2012
Re: What small breed dog gives birth with the least chance of problems?
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2019, 02:45:11 pm »
Why don’t you get a jack Russell ? Fairly cheap to buy, small, relatively healthy little dogs. I’ve only bred 1 litter of pups (spaniels) but if you came to me wanting a bitch to breed just to recoup the purchase price I would not sell you the puppy.

GBov

  • Joined Nov 2019
Re: What small breed dog gives birth with the least chance of problems?
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2019, 03:26:33 pm »
Why don’t you get a jack Russell ? Fairly cheap to buy, small, relatively healthy little dogs. I’ve only bred 1 litter of pups (spaniels) but if you came to me wanting a bitch to breed just to recoup the purchase price I would not sell you the puppy.

My youngest brother had JRTs and he has never had a dog, or a bitch, that I would give you tuppence for.  And when I worked with Hunter/Jumpers in the states, JRTs were the dog of choice of most of the stables and again, never met one I wanted.

I have met two over the years that I fell for but terriers are all working dogs and what we want is a companion.  A breed bred to do NOTHING but keep people company. Or, if they did start out with a job, it has been bred out of them a long time ago.

We don't want a dog to recoup our purchase cost, we want the fun of having the first one for mum - to force her to go out every day and nothing but a dog will do that - and then having puppies for my kids and I and, if everything works out fine and dandy, keeping one and selling the rest.

What we are trying to do now is to find the best breed for us.  And perhaps we will so fall in love with the breed and raising puppies, we may go into it in a bigger way (as mum did in the 60s with poodles) or perhaps the mess and noise of puppies will put us all off having them ever again and the bitch will be spayed after the first litter.

Life is like that, you gotta try it and see and from what I can see, puppies will never lack for homes in this area.  Esp. small breed puppies.


SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: What small breed dog gives birth with the least chance of problems?
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2019, 04:51:08 pm »


Blimey, are ANY small dogs problem free?  No wonder out crossing is such a big thing now, if those are the kinds of issues breeders are dealing with.



Nail <— head


Not just little dogs either. 


And now ask yourself why mongrels and crosses (especially of unlike breeds with different health issues) are fetching good money.... :thinking:

People just want a family pet that will be fun to own and not break their hearts with inbred health problems.
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

GBov

  • Joined Nov 2019
Re: What small breed dog gives birth with the least chance of problems?
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2019, 05:30:58 pm »


And now ask yourself why mongrels and crosses (especially of unlike breeds with different health issues) are fetching good money.... :thinking:

People just want a family pet that will be fun to own and not break their hearts with inbred health problems.

I know if I cross two different breeds of rabbits - say, Rex and Angora - I get hybrid vigor and a great meat rabbit out of it, first-generation.  That does not last into the second generation and many of the problems in the parent stock - soft feet and tangling wool for instance - show back up.

How does it work in dogs?  Does the outcrossing produce better offspring or do they just get the worst of both worlds after a generation or two?

Too many questions and as this project isn't livestock that we can eat if it goes pearshaped, I want to nail down as many facts as possible!

harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: What small breed dog gives birth with the least chance of problems?
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2019, 07:15:44 pm »


And now ask yourself why mongrels and crosses (especially of unlike breeds with different health issues) are fetching good money.... :thinking:

People just want a family pet that will be fun to own and not break their hearts with inbred health problems.



They are fetching good money because they have become a fad and people have jumped on the money making wheel. Also the internet has made it so much easier to sell. The guy who created the labradoodle regrets he ever did. If most people took more care choosing a dog and researched what a dog needs the rescue centres wouldn't be so full.


Rescue centres are all ready full and in a few weeks there will be the usual influx of unwanted puppies. Pedigree, designer and mongrel.




SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: What small breed dog gives birth with the least chance of problems?
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2019, 07:17:33 pm »

I know if I cross two different breeds of rabbits - say, Rex and Angora - I get hybrid vigor and a great meat rabbit out of it, first-generation. 

Same applies with farm livestock to an extent - the Mule ewe was the basis of the British sheep industry for a good many years, the Blue Grey cow makes good use of marginal lands in the north, and so on.  In the case of the Mule (which is still produced in great numbers every year, just isn’t as dominant as she once was), crossing tups are specifically bred for their performance on the various hill breeds which produce the Mule.  A prize-winning pedigree Blue-faced Leicester who fathers great prize-winning pedigree Blue-faced Leicesters is probably not much use on a hill farm in Swaledale, but his (usually slightly out-crossed ;) ) great grandson may well fetch more money as a sirer of Mules ;)


I suspect you may be right about the second and third gen crosses.  But when I was a gal, there were dogs who were pure mongrel, been mongrel for many many generations, possibly ever, which in certain locales had become kind of like a local breed.  Generally very hale and hearty, very few health issues.  These types seem to have all but gone in Britain now as far as I can see - but others may say different, I don’t spend a lot of time in urban sprawls these days!  Lol

 

Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: What small breed dog gives birth with the least chance of problems?
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2019, 07:18:10 pm »

Rescue centres are all ready full and in a few weeks there will be the usual influx of unwanted puppies. Pedigree, designer and mongrel.

I think we can all agree on that, sadly  :'(
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

 

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