The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: GBov on December 08, 2019, 09:26:56 pm
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I am looking into getting my mum a puppy and other than needing something small and wanting a bitch, she is pretty flexible as to breed. And, as small dogs look like costing us rather a lot of money, it would be nice to breed her girl when she grows up, that way the kids and I can have one as well. The time payment plan, as it were. lol
Breeding comes with risks though and I want to get her a companion breed that is ultra-healthy and pups with few, if any, complications.
Reading up on breeds of dogs though, the bit of information I want is missing, nothing even mentions breeding. Have found only one mention that Shih Tzu (which mum loves) have narrow pelvises so have complications which is not a lot to go on.
Does anyone know what small dog breeds breed the easiest? And are NOT terriers!
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Why not consider a rescue rather than buying bred pup? The rescues are desperate for good permanent homes and, speaking as someone who's always adopted, I've never had a bad one (even the boomerang mutt settled with us eventually, albeit he took his time... you couldn't really blame him for not unpacking his bag first night; we were the 8th home we knew about).
Because any responsible rescue society will neuter a dog before rehoming it.
And any responsible owner will only breed to improve the breed they have,
Anything can happen, and as you rightly say, there are risks and your mum could actually lose her much loved pet in the process.
I am an experienced owner/breeder/judge as well as having worked my breed. Even so I almost lost my champion bitch when she started to abort a few days before she was due. Being experienced I recognised the symptoms, phoned my vet, drove half an hour on a dark wet night, and between us we managed to save her and 4 of her 7 pups, although it was touch and go. I lost money on that litter and nearly lost my girl. It was not her first litter either so no cause to think there might be problems. I'd have been devastated if I'd lost her. I haven't bred either her or my younger one since, despite having my own stud dog, and have just had the younger one spayed.
Many breeds have recommended health checks - eye ones in spaniels are usually done every year, or every two years depending on which. Some breeds need hip and/or elbow x-ray scoring(labradors). It's not just a case of going to your vet for a general health check although that is important too.
You can of course not do these tests but if any resulting pups develop inherited issues then the breeder can be held liable. It's just not worth chancing it in my opinion.
If your mum wants a dog get her the best you can afford without having to rely on breeding in 2 years time. There are many websites which will help you decide which breed is best for her -
Iams https://www.iams.com/breedselector/ (https://www.iams.com/breedselector/)
James Wellbeloved https://www.wellbeloved.com (https://www.wellbeloved.com)
Purina https://www.purina.co.uk/dogs/dog-breeds/breed-selector (https://www.purina.co.uk/dogs/dog-breeds/breed-selector)
and the Kennel Club. https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/findabreed/Default.aspx (https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/findabreed/Default.aspx)
Good luck finding the right dog for her
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Scarlet Dragon, every dog we have ever had in my not short life has been a rescue but having looked at what is available - I can read between the lines on dogs up for rescue - nothing will suit her so if we have to buy, we may as well get exactly what we want.
Doganjo, thank you for that information, the breed selectors are as bad as the rest though about health, not a single question about healthy.
Mum bred toy poodles a loooooong time ago so she knows the risks but you are right, it is always a risk. Reproduction for ANY species is dangerous, even our own.
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Scarlet Dragon, every dog we have ever had in my not short life has been a rescue but having looked at what is available - I can read between the lines on dogs up for rescue - nothing will suit her so if we have to buy, we may as well get exactly what we want.
Doganjo, thank you for that information, the breed selectors are as bad as the rest though about health, not a single question about healthy.
Mum bred toy poodles a loooooong time ago so she knows the risks but you are right, it is always a risk. Reproduction for ANY species is dangerous, even our own.
If your mother knows toy poodles then why not buy one of those. You could always breed boodle crosses - theysell for stupid money. I was not just discussing health requirements, but also healthiness. There are very good reasons why heaklth requiremetns are in place. They are inherited and if you buy from a non-responsible breeder they may not have them checked and the condition then perpetuates when you also breed on without checking.
As I stated in my earlier post, the aim of breeding is to improve the breed, not to make money. A well bred bitch, brought up well, fed well, health checked well, mated to a similar stud, producing good puppies, may not create profit, in fact is purely forced saving.
I have raraely made money on breeding except when my Brittany bitch produced 11 pups and did not require supplementary feeding. Many of those became champions, one an Internation champion, another two Irish champions, my own producing my own champion stud dog
Buy well, breed well, feed well and you may recoup your outgoings
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I’m reading the OPs plan as “Buy one, breed X, keep 2, sell X-2”, not “become a breeder”.
If the original bitch costs £600, they use a stud dog whose fee is the sale price of 1 puppy, the bitch has 4 puppies and the 2 spares sell for £500 each, then the family end up with 3 dogs for a net outlay of the original £600 less any net profit from the litter (which I guess would be somewhere between none and a couple of hundred), plus all the fun of having a litter. (And yes, all the work and possibly heartache too. But they do know what they are letting themselves in for.)
The alternative being an outlay of £1800 for the desired 3 dogs.
I’d feel differently if the family had never bred puppies before, but as the mum has experience of breeding, I don’t see a lot of harm in the plan. I do see how this domestic-scale breeding could annoy a professional breeder, but it’s just one litter, they are experienced, and they want to keep 2 of the pups for themselves.
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Why not jut buy a cheap small dog and forget the breeding?
There is a reason CKC and Bichons are so beloved by puppy farmers.... (cost/benefit)
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Why not jut buy a cheap small dog and forget the breeding?
There is a reason CKC and Bichons are so beloved by puppy farmers.... (cost/benefit)
Have you seen the price of mongrels? Never mind purebred pups, its like, OMG HOW MUCH???
I have bred thousands of rabbits, hundreds of pigs, many goats and uncounted numbers of poultry but dogs are new to me, breeding wise. But as mum bred poodles in the 60s we have that experience to draw on.
"Breed the best, eat the rest" doesn't work with pets so I am trying to get the right match for us all, size, temperament, health, trainability, and low energy.
I like what I read about Cotton de Tulear so I just looked up health in them and in toy poodles and Shih Tzu.
Blimey, are ANY small dogs problem free? No wonder out crossing is such a big thing now, if those are the kinds of issues breeders are dealing with.
And I thought breeding for better feet was a project in my rabbits, no wonder you say breeding to improve the breed is so important Doganjo!
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Why don’t you get a jack Russell ? Fairly cheap to buy, small, relatively healthy little dogs. I’ve only bred 1 litter of pups (spaniels) but if you came to me wanting a bitch to breed just to recoup the purchase price I would not sell you the puppy.
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Why don’t you get a jack Russell ? Fairly cheap to buy, small, relatively healthy little dogs. I’ve only bred 1 litter of pups (spaniels) but if you came to me wanting a bitch to breed just to recoup the purchase price I would not sell you the puppy.
My youngest brother had JRTs and he has never had a dog, or a bitch, that I would give you tuppence for. And when I worked with Hunter/Jumpers in the states, JRTs were the dog of choice of most of the stables and again, never met one I wanted.
I have met two over the years that I fell for but terriers are all working dogs and what we want is a companion. A breed bred to do NOTHING but keep people company. Or, if they did start out with a job, it has been bred out of them a long time ago.
We don't want a dog to recoup our purchase cost, we want the fun of having the first one for mum - to force her to go out every day and nothing but a dog will do that - and then having puppies for my kids and I and, if everything works out fine and dandy, keeping one and selling the rest.
What we are trying to do now is to find the best breed for us. And perhaps we will so fall in love with the breed and raising puppies, we may go into it in a bigger way (as mum did in the 60s with poodles) or perhaps the mess and noise of puppies will put us all off having them ever again and the bitch will be spayed after the first litter.
Life is like that, you gotta try it and see and from what I can see, puppies will never lack for homes in this area. Esp. small breed puppies.
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Blimey, are ANY small dogs problem free? No wonder out crossing is such a big thing now, if those are the kinds of issues breeders are dealing with.
Nail <— head
Not just little dogs either.
And now ask yourself why mongrels and crosses (especially of unlike breeds with different health issues) are fetching good money.... :thinking:
People just want a family pet that will be fun to own and not break their hearts with inbred health problems.
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And now ask yourself why mongrels and crosses (especially of unlike breeds with different health issues) are fetching good money.... :thinking:
People just want a family pet that will be fun to own and not break their hearts with inbred health problems.
I know if I cross two different breeds of rabbits - say, Rex and Angora - I get hybrid vigor and a great meat rabbit out of it, first-generation. That does not last into the second generation and many of the problems in the parent stock - soft feet and tangling wool for instance - show back up.
How does it work in dogs? Does the outcrossing produce better offspring or do they just get the worst of both worlds after a generation or two?
Too many questions and as this project isn't livestock that we can eat if it goes pearshaped, I want to nail down as many facts as possible!
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And now ask yourself why mongrels and crosses (especially of unlike breeds with different health issues) are fetching good money.... :thinking:
People just want a family pet that will be fun to own and not break their hearts with inbred health problems.
They are fetching good money because they have become a fad and people have jumped on the money making wheel. Also the internet has made it so much easier to sell. The guy who created the labradoodle regrets he ever did. If most people took more care choosing a dog and researched what a dog needs the rescue centres wouldn't be so full.
Rescue centres are all ready full and in a few weeks there will be the usual influx of unwanted puppies. Pedigree, designer and mongrel.
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I know if I cross two different breeds of rabbits - say, Rex and Angora - I get hybrid vigor and a great meat rabbit out of it, first-generation.
Same applies with farm livestock to an extent - the Mule ewe was the basis of the British sheep industry for a good many years, the Blue Grey cow makes good use of marginal lands in the north, and so on. In the case of the Mule (which is still produced in great numbers every year, just isn’t as dominant as she once was), crossing tups are specifically bred for their performance on the various hill breeds which produce the Mule. A prize-winning pedigree Blue-faced Leicester who fathers great prize-winning pedigree Blue-faced Leicesters is probably not much use on a hill farm in Swaledale, but his (usually slightly out-crossed ;) ) great grandson may well fetch more money as a sirer of Mules ;)
I suspect you may be right about the second and third gen crosses. But when I was a gal, there were dogs who were pure mongrel, been mongrel for many many generations, possibly ever, which in certain locales had become kind of like a local breed. Generally very hale and hearty, very few health issues. These types seem to have all but gone in Britain now as far as I can see - but others may say different, I don’t spend a lot of time in urban sprawls these days! Lol
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Rescue centres are all ready full and in a few weeks there will be the usual influx of unwanted puppies. Pedigree, designer and mongrel.
I think we can all agree on that, sadly :'(
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"Breed the best, eat the rest" doesn't work with pets so I am trying to get the right match for us all, size, temperament, health, trainability, and low energy.
Blimey, are ANY small dogs problem free? No wonder out crossing is such a big thing now, if those are the kinds of issues breeders are dealing with.
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1. You just need the right sauce, try Sweet Chilli
2. No, none are problem free, typical puppy farm choices are your best bet as mentioned CKC, Bichon, Westies etc. Poodles aren't bad, whippets are another choice to consider from personal experience (working lines). Basically if its terrier size but isn't a terrier expect more trouble
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I've avoided this topic until now, but I do want to comment on the mongrel issue. As Sally has pointed out, mongrels are very different to crossbred dogs. The classic mongrel is the black and tan 'Heinz 57 varieties' mutt. We had one from the cat and dog rescue in Edinburgh (Seafield). She was the most wonderful, loyal, devoted, well behaved and beloved dog, strong and healthy. As we took her away from the rescue, someone on his way in said 'ah you've got a lappit-eared worrier there', and so she was - just always wanting to do the right thing. Not a tiny dog certainly but not large either.
On the other hand, crosses of pure breeds can sometimes be disastrous. We took over the care of sisters from a litter of Wolfhound cross Anatolian Karabash pups - huge dogs. As they grew it became apparent that they had totally different characters, one very laid back, the other too intelligent for her own good, but both wonderful, loving, companion animals. They had plenty of hybrid vigour, being strong and healthy. One evening, the bright one ran off, (followed by her sister who was always determined to stop any badness be it a fight between chickens, sheep or dogs) She got amongst our neighbour's pregnant ewes, chased them a long way then attacked 3 of them. Of course she had to be put down, not just for that but she frequently attacked our other dogs, with her sister always trying to pull her off. She would not have been safe being rehomed, as her character was totally unpredictable, so she could have been a danger to children and adults too. It was our responsibility to make the decision but it was so sad. We felt that although in her sister the cross was brilliant and we had a laidback, gentle flock protector, with this lass something just was not connected properly. There had been 11 pups in the original litter and I worried about what had happened with the others.
What I am trying to say I think is that no dog is automatically perfect, whether the breed is famed for it or otherwise, so choose your mum's dog very very carefully, not just for what type you buy but for the nature of the individual animal. Also, she needs to be there to choose her own pet as it may respond differently to her than to you.
We have never bred dogs so I can offer no opinion on that one.
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GBov - just bumped this up as I am intrigued as to which breed you've decided upon for your mum? It was also interesting to read all the replies and opinions. I've kept dogs for decades, from Hungarian Kuvasz to tea cup Schnauzer (breeder didn't tell me she was a tea cup) and I agree the dogs with the worst health issues were the small ones. My favourite dog of all time was my boy Josh, a Lhasa Apso and a soul mate and to be fair he was fairly healthy until about 10 then started with several pancreatic attacks which needed hospitalisation at the vets, then followed diabetes and blindness (gave him insulin injections twice daily for over two years). At no point did the vets suggest euthanasia and it was costing me a packet, but he was happy and he was my boy :love: But at 14 he was finally put to sleep due to luxating patella. I have an elderly lab and a mature mini schnauzer now and worry what I'll do when my lab goes and poor Frazer will be left on his own, so I've started looking at dog breeds again, which is how I ended up reading this post.
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In reply to the comment about rescues and 'reading between the lines' I think you are being totally unfair. Dogs don't all end up in rescue due to bad behaviour.
My mum got a fab choc lab from RSPCA years ago …. a lovely dog who needed a new home as her owner got too ill to care for her.
I have had 3 rescue collies over the years …. as all dogs they need time to work out what you boundaries are in the same way puppies need training..... but they all became superb dogs.
Also don't know how old your mum is but I have a friend (in her 70's)who was given a puppy after her husband died, to help her get out … it was a disaster …. she just didn't have the time and energy needed for a puppy.
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I have really enjoyed this thread as well!
Growing up with rescue dogs and found dogs and picked up out of rush hour traffic dogs and wandered up to the house and never went away again dogs, I have lots of dog experience.
Not all dogs are good dogs, just like not all people are good people. Some dogs are bad dogs. It is sad but it happens.
Not all dogs wind up in shelters due to being bad dogs. I know this because we have had many good dogs from shelters. We have also lived with, for years, many problem dogs that, to be honest, should have been given terminal lead poisoning to give room for a good dog.
I have looked at the rescue websites for several months and not one single dog has shown up that would suit either my mum or us. And, if she turns out to be unable to have a puppy, it will come to us so needs to be a good fit for all.
Culling hard for health is done with livestock but not pets. To me that is insane but it is the world we live in. Growing up in the Deep South, in the States, mongrels were common and always healthy. I guess if a pup wasn't, it died, hence the overall health of mutts.
Mongrels now seem to be gone, both here and there, and only pure and/or crossed pups exist. Hence us looking at breeds and trying to find one that has overall good health.
No luck there so second best is to get a breed we like and go from there. Thinking of a Shi Tzu as we have had two rescue Zu's in the past and loved them.
Have started pondering trying to create my own breed using lots of small breeds and always going for health and vigor. As I know at least 6 people wanting a small dog/puppy right now, not counting the wanted adds, there would seem to be a real need.
Panic not though, the start-up cost of that kind of breeding project is rather cost-prohibitive so shall live in the "what if" catagory of lotto win spends.
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I've also been looking on many rescue sites in Scotland and they seem to be full of bull terrier and collie types, I think small dogs are snapped up really quickly. But I don't think you'd go wrong with a Shi Tzu or a Lhasa :dog:
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I've also been looking on many rescue sites in Scotland and they seem to be full of bull terrier and collie types, I think small dogs are snapped up really quickly. But I don't think you'd go wrong with a Shi Tzu or a Lhasa :dog:
And there is a Chiwawa (sp?) on our street that makes me rethink the entire breed. WHAT a wonderful little thing he is, so funny and so friendly. He wears a light-up collar at night and looks like a teeny tiny UFO coming down to say hi.
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I've always been a "proper" (big / working) dog person, but I've always like Chihuahuas. I do worry though that they are now being bred with an even more exaggeratedly domed head, and am worried about the sort of health issues they've been having with the Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.
Just went and looked it up, and according to Fitzpatrick Referrals The condition is most commonly reported in Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, King Charles Spaniels, Griffon Bruxellois, Affenpinchers, Yorkshire Terriers, Maltese, Chihuahuas, Pomeranians, Boston Terriers, Papillons, French Bulldogs and Pugs.
Guess I won't be getting one of those when I'm too old for a more active dog, then :'(
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How sad is that? :'(
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How sad is that? :'(
It's beyond sad. It's an utter disgrace :rant:
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I'd stick with health tested cockers.
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Well I think I see a plan, but the initial outlay will be greater. Good potential returns, though.
Shut your ears, Annie, you're not going to like this :innocent:
Get your mum a nice poodle bitch - toy or miniature whichever she prefers - and yourself a Shih Tzu dog. Good market for the offspring (Shihpoos), and you're avoiding the issue of the Shih Tzu's narrow pelvis.
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Well I think I see a plan, but the initial outlay will be greater. Good potential returns, though.
Shut your ears, Annie, you're not going to like this :innocent:
Get your mum a nice poodle bitch - toy or miniature whichever she prefers - and yourself a Shih Tzu dog. Good market for the offspring (Shihpoos), and you're avoiding the issue of the Shih Tzu's narrow pelvis.
Great minds think alike, eh? ;) Although is they are both bitches I can outcross to two other breeds by paying stud services fees and increase the gene pool 4X. :innocent:
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Well I think I see a plan, but the initial outlay will be greater. Good potential returns, though.
Shut your ears, Annie, you're not going to like this :innocent:
Get your mum a nice poodle bitch - toy or miniature whichever she prefers - and yourself a Shih Tzu dog. Good market for the offspring (Shihpoos), and you're avoiding the issue of the Shih Tzu's narrow pelvis.
:roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
La la le la la
:poo: :poo: :poo: :poo: :poo: :poo: :poo: :poo: :poo: :poo: :poo: :poo: :poo: :poo:
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Well I think I see a plan, but the initial outlay will be greater. Good potential returns, though.
Shut your ears, Annie, you're not going to like this :innocent:
Get your mum a nice poodle bitch - toy or miniature whichever she prefers - and yourself a Shih Tzu dog. Good market for the offspring (Shihpoos), and you're avoiding the issue of the Shih Tzu's narrow pelvis.
Great minds think alike, eh? ;) Although is they are both bitches I can outcross to two other breeds by paying stud services fees and increase the gene pool 4X. :innocent:
OMG!!!!
Not anoither designer breed bred for money!!! :coat:
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I've also been looking on many rescue sites in Scotland and they seem to be full of bull terrier and collie types, I think small dogs are snapped up really quickly. But I don't think you'd go wrong with a Shi Tzu or a Lhasa :dog:
And there is a Chiwawa (sp?) on our street that makes me rethink the entire breed. WHAT a wonderful little thing he is, so funny and so friendly. He wears a light-up collar at night and looks like a teeny tiny UFO coming down to say hi.
Sadly the ones I've met have been quite nasty >:(
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Designer breed?
Is that not an expensive mongrel? :sofa: :coat:
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Designer breed?
Is that not an expensive mongrel? :sofa: :coat:
Depends upon what one sells them for. :roflanim:
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I've also been looking on many rescue sites in Scotland and they seem to be full of bull terrier and collie types, I think small dogs are snapped up really quickly. But I don't think you'd go wrong with a Shi Tzu or a Lhasa :dog:
If it’s anything like a lot of the rescues in the NE of England, the rescues will have waiting lists for both certain breeds and also “type” of dog and so they never make the websites. Only the staffie / lurcher / collie type dogs often don’t meet anyone’s criteria on the waiting lists so are the ones you see advertised.
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Checked the price of puppies last week, they seem to have doubled at least since the last time I was looking. :o
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Checked the price of puppies last week, they seem to have doubled at least since the last time I was looking. :o
And they'll be on rescue after lockdown ends when folk are back at work or ther'ss no money to feed them