[Castle Farm]

After a discussion with a farming friend (300+ acres) the topic of smallholding came up and he asked was it a pre requisite that most smallholders seem to go in for 'hobby livestock' such as

Shetland sheep/Jacobs/Soay.
Dexter cattle.

He thought it quite odd that breeders of these breeds are in a very tight market place selling only to other 'hobby farmer' and how it payed to keep breeds that by farming standards were almost unmarketable.

Why I wonder do some smallholder go in for this type of animal, as apposed to a breed that are more main stream.

I'm not having a go at anyone that does, but I found it was a question I couldn't give an informed reply to.

[Power Poultry]

We keep shetland sheep as there smalll and for a novice easy to handle.

I would say thats why most smallholders do we dont have all the fancy stuff to handle them and do it all by hand.

So A large ewe or ram would bugger our backs for life

 

[Rosemary]

We have Ryeland sheep and are about to get Shetland cattle; we've always had Tamworth weaners, so we probably fall into the category of "hobby farmers" with "hobby livestock".

What is a "hobby farmer"? And why do those who se themselves as "real" farmers seem to use it as a derogatory term? I suppose we are hobby farmers in so far as the farm doesn't provide the bulk (any  ) of our income. However as more "real" farmers diversify into tourism, contracting, leisure activities, do they become hobby farmers too?

We keep livestock primarily for ourselves - for our table - so quality not quantity is most important, so we have gone for traditional breeds with a reputation for producing quality meat. We do sell our surplus though.

Our cows will produce milk for the home and beef for our freezer mainly from grass. But I don't want a Holstein that produces 11000 lites of milk a year and a poor quality beef calf, then fails to get in calf after her second lactation or her udder or feet collapse. And to get the milk and beef, I'd have to spend a fortune on grain to feed her and her calf. One of the Shetlands we saw at the weekend is 19 and has had 15 calves and lives on forage, had a fabulous udder and looks like a young cow.

We also want to help to preserve our traditional and rare breeds. The "mainstream" breeds are often high input, high output breeds, requiring lots of cereals, housing, fertiliser etc. At some point, farming is going to have to look at whether these things are sustainable. Maybe then, today's "hobby livestock" will become mainstream.

[HappyHippy]

I think that small holders / small farmers / hobby farmers - whatever we're called  ::)want to primarily use traditional breeds that, due to high consumer demand, are no longer favourable/profitable in high production farming. I think we generally favour traditional breeds because of their ease of management, hardiness and flavour.
Large farms (who's only income comes from what they produce) are looking for a breed that gives maximum return for as little cash and time possible - and that's not meant as a dig at anyone - just basic business sense. Piggeries with F1 Hybrid sows, producing large litters of quick maturing piglets to raise to pork weight, dairy farms with holsteins to give maximum milk production etc all modern breeds, developed for maximum yield.
'We' are in a lucky position to be able to choose what we want, rather than what's most profitable. And 9 times out of 10 it's going to be something to provide intrest and high quality meat, that tastes 'the way it used to'. These breeds just doesn't fit with modern, large scale farming - but I think (and hope) that times are changing and people are starting to think about where their food comes from and the awareness and demand for traditional breeds is rising.

[Fleecewife]

Everyone has made excellent points.  It's great to see how strongly we all feel about the importance of what we do      
Smallholding is a different way of doing things - neither better not worse than family farms or large scale commercial or even factory farms (although the last two are not to my taste).  'Hobby farming' IS a derogatory (and largely innacurate) term used by those who don't understand what we do. (It is though different to 'lifestyle smallholders' - I think this applies more to those who have a small piece of land with some livestock, but they don't do the work themselves, being sufficiently well-off to employ others to do that while they enjoy living in the countryside) In fact many smallholders can live off their land, especially if they have added income - as many bigger farms now need.
I would like to emphasise Rosemary's point that we are the guardians of the rare and traditional breeds - we are preserving them, with all their special characteristics, so that as climate, farming methods and demand change in years to come there will be a reservoir of breeds which can be used to breed some of those traits into new breeds suitable for the future. The commercial breeds are suited to todays farming methods and butchery needs but these will change, in fact are changing now. Farmers seem to be very resistant to change, but would do well to look at what the market wants when they are producing their giant animals - the modern family is small and wants cuts of meat which are quick and easy to cook, not huge legs of lamb which will feed them for a week.  They want lean meat with plenty of flavour and to know it's provenance. Well, not all buyers do - some of course just want a cheap slab of meat - each to their own.
It is only 15 years since we bought our smallholding and in those years the number of people doing the same thing seems to have increased dramatically.  I am not good at remembering statistics but I believe that small farms are now providing an appreciable portion of the output of all farms together. 

[Fleecewife]

Another point is that most smallholders also have a small acreage.  To keep a hulking great Limousin on 3 acres would be pretty daft and would leave no room for anything else. 
Many smallholders nowadays are older, having worked for years in dreary city jobs to be able to afford to live in the country, so for them smaller breeds which are easy to handle make good sense.
I often wonder the opposite - why do some people with smallholdings keep commercial breeds, where high returns are dependant on large numbers, with economy of scale.  With the old breeds we are going for quality not quantity.

[Castle Farm]

I often wonder the opposite - why do some people with smallholdings keep commercial breeds, where high returns are dependant on large numbers, with economy of scale.  With the old breeds we are going for quality not quantity.

I have 16 acres and keep pedigree Llyen sheep. I sold 2 ram lambs yesterday (bought by a 'proper farmer') and I got £200 each for them. They are a commercial breed and are easy to keep and catch, so that argument doesn't stack up.

This year I had twins off every ewe without fuss and the males went off grass at £64 each.

How much are Shetland making?

[ballingall]

I have to say I agree with Castle Farm, at least when it comes to sheep. If I were to keep a few sheep in my field, I wouldn't pick Shetland, or Soay. I would pick a commercial sheep- I still have a soft spot for the Texel we used to keep.

Small breeds of sheep do have their place, but by keeping them we aren't just neccessarily helping a rare breed. Many of these types evolved to live on Islands, and to survive with not as much lush grass. Therefore, surely if smallholders are keeping these breeds, on the mainland, on lush grass- they are going to evolve again, and then they won't be those traditional breeds.

Please note my comments relatee to sheep only- cattle and pigs are different matter again.


Beth

[lazybee]

I think Castle farm's "friend" with only 300 acres can hardly be called a farmer at all. 300 acres would be classed as a hobby farm by many. I think for most people the small scale is a lifestyle thing. I personally have 30 acres and go out to work. Therefore I would have to class myself as a 'hobby farmer' I don't really care how I'm labeled. Who came up with the term hobby livestock? ( Okay Alpacas, Llamas etc could be classed thus) . Most of the breeds mentioned are for small scale operations and have been in the past. We are talking about smallholding here. Castle farm mentioned selling 2 rams at 200 quid each you'd have to be selling 200+ per year just to eke out a living. I can't even say I do my bit for rare breeds, but I have got a Baudet de Poutou donkey if he counts..........I'm still doing my own thing though, to me that's important

[Fleecewife]

I agree with that - it is noticeable within the Hebdridean breed that animals which have been reared for generations on lush grass in say Cheshire, have become larger.  When these same sheep are brought up to Scotland and run on poorer pastures they do not do so well.  Similarly with Soay - there are some quite large specimens around - although if you look at the pictures in Prof Jewels's book Island Survivors, Soay in St Kilda can be pretty hefty too. Jacobs, which have suffered a bit from being bred by some for the showring, have grown into quite a large breed - I suspect market pressures and the feeding of too much concentrate are responsible here.
Before we jump to conclusions though we would need to measure and compare these breeds skeletally with individuals from the past - it's easy to be mislead by big fluffy fleeces.
One way of slowing this possible evolution is for breed descriptions and standards to specify a maximum size, as the Ouessants and Hebrideans do - it's not foolproof of course, nor does it prevent an adaptation to lusher pasture from evolving. One good point about the rare breeds sales is that breeders are encouraged to source their new stock from far afield, so that for example, those raising Scottish island sheep in deepest England can replenish their lines with new animals from the north, with the original adaptations.
So, being sensible as most smallholders have to be, we can usually judge if our pastures and acreage is suited to large commercial breeds or whether our grass is poorer, our acreage smaller and our bodies weaker, so we can choose to preserve the less numerous rare or traditional breeds, for whatever reason pleases us.

Ballingall, you say you wouldn't keep Shetland sheep, but from your commercials can you also sell their fleece at a premium to hand spinners, felters and so on, plus the skins from meat sheep? Do you get a premium for meat with low-CLA from a known producer and can you sell to the niche restaurant trade? All these aspects help to increase the income from these breeds up towards that obtained from bigger commercial sheep. Good quality registered Shetland ewes are selling for £50-70, with approved tups for far more, at the major rare breeds sales. Hebrideans are selling for a little more, and even Soays, of good provenance will sell for £70, even £100. This is the difference between rearing for meat and rearing for breeding stock and would apply to all breeds, rare or commercial. You can keep a few more to your acreage of the smaller breeds of primitives, although of course many rare breeds are large, with a correspondingly large carcass.  My point is that different breeds suit different breeders and situations, but as smallholders we have a choice as to which breed we choose.
This discussion began with a commercial farmer asking why smallholders keep 'hobby breeds'. You have challenged this assumption and from your reply and others the answer is - we don't ! Or not necessarily or exclusively.  Also, not all commercial scale sheep breeders avoid the rare breeds - there are many very large flocks of both Shetlands and Hebrideans out there, being run very successfully as both purebred and crossbred flocks.

[jacob and Georgina]

i personally think that it is important that rare breeds are cared for so that they do not become extinct, however has other people have stated they are not as profitable as commercial breeds and it is not profitable for a farmer to keep them, this is the main reason why i will always choose to have a bread such as soay because it is important we don't loose them! also if you are only going to have a few sheep running around a field then sheep such as Jacobs can be a bit different to look at!! not sure if this answers the original question but oh well   

[Anke]

In terms of sheep breeds I keep Shetlands for several reasons: fleece, easy care and handling, they lamb outside, usually have twins and rear them well on grass alone, and they make good hogget/mutton, again on grass alone. Most of the rare breeds can be successfully crossed with terminal sires to produce fat lambs. I have larger Xewes that go to my shetland tup for that reason. I could not really afford to spend 200+ on a tup every couple of years, and my ewes bought at 35 quid as store lambs just after the last FMD scare in 2007 will last me for about 10 years! The commercial breeds just won't do that! And just last week 200 bought me three good pedigree shetland ewes, again I hope they will be productive till they are about 10! However I have not done the calculations if we actually break even on the sheep (and we definitely won't do on the goats!), the whole smallholding is a way of life for us, and yes we do use a salary from an outside job to finance it - but that's how we define quality of life...

One thing that I have seen here with a few of the bigger farms is that guys in their 40s are still being told by their fathers (and often mothers) how to run the farm, as the older generation is still in charge of it all, and holds the purse strings. Not my idea of a happy life...

And I agree with what was said before, lots of large farms now have to diversify to make up the mortgage payments (or the wife's salary pays for it), so which one is the hobby part of it.... I also find it quite strange that most large farms have the space to have a good productive vegetable and fruit garden/poultry area/ space for a couple of weaners etc etc, could have the freezer space and don't do any of it - buy their eggs/meat and veg in Tesco's!!!!

[morri2]

I was pleased to see this thread as, over the last few weeks I've been pretty disheartened with the whole process of commercial  farming.  It started with an ad I saw in the Farmer's Guardian for a Beltex ram. Call this a sheep?? I thought it looked more like a pig, OMG its ugly, looks nothing like a sheep, and I wouldn't mind betting its meat is bland as hell!  What on earth are we doing to our livestock?? 
The main problem with the commercial aspect is, I feel, not only with the modified breeds being used for pure profit (as they are hardly attractive) but with the meat trade as a whole.   Having done quite of bit of reading on this point lately, farming these types of these high input, high output breeds is the only way of making money.  Most of the money, in subsidies as well as plain profits, are taken by processors, not farmers! (See Felicity Lawrence's book 'Eat Your Heart Out') This applies mostly to other sectors of livestock farming, probably more than sheep.  That said, how much money does everyone need these days? Most of the 'poor Welsh farmers' around here have all the kit, brand new pickups, new cars for the wife, always snapping up the land as it comes available - for rent, auction or otherwise.  So there's money coming from somewhere!  That leaves us poor smallholders here, trying to live off the land traditionally as possible, on well below the average wage, with little or no chance to expand.  But we do have our part in keeping decent breeds of sheep and, indeed, other livestock.   As has been pointed out above, most of which I agree with, there does appear to be a very slight revival in traditional breeds, just hope it continues to grow. As for 'hobby farming'?  In my view this category are those who keep stock for the love of it, and not particularly to make anything out of.  Smallholders on the other hand need to make something out of their efforts.  I call myself a smallholder, OH helps, but is mainly a plumber/builder by trade.  We have to sell a product at the end of it all or we would be bankrupt - we also love the way of life.  We would love to break into farming on a larger scale, but as pointed out above - we are way down in the queue for land here, and if we applied for assistance from the Welsh Assembly, we couldn't get it because we are too small!! Oh! and probably keep the wrong breed of sheep to warrant any financial aid!  Catch 22 - whole system needs review I think!  The only way forward now, is back...today's commercial farming is not sustainable, neither are the breeds, although its too early yet to expect drastic change.  With the predicted future food shortages we need to feed ourselves and protect what we feel is important to us. It will be the smallholder who will survive in the end!!  (Heavens that sounded prophetic - wasn't meant too though, just my views!)

[Fleecewife]

Well said Morri2.

There should be EU subsidies specially to help preserve rare breeds - there are in all the other EU countries -  but Maggie Thatcher sold us down the Swannee on that one - swapped our rights to that support to bale her out of some other trouble I can't even recall.

[VSS]

The main problem with the commercial aspect is, I feel, not only with the modified breeds being used for pure profit

Most people who run business are aiming to make a profit. Commercial farms are businesses so where is the problem with profit motive?

Most of the 'poor Welsh farmers' around here have all the kit, brand new pickups, new cars for the wife, always snapping up the land as it comes available - for rent, auction or otherwise. 

Not much new kit around here - we certainly don't have a new pick up and can only afford to run one car. Rather a sweeping generalisation.

we do have our part in keeping decent breeds of sheep and, indeed, other livestock.

As do we! We keep welsh mountain sheep, which is pretty much the traditional breed when you live halfway up a welsh mountain! Surely that is more traditional than keeping shetlands in Sussex? Perhaps you would advocate that smallholders kept their local breed, which has, afterall, developed to be suited to the local environment.

It will be the smallholder who will survive in the end!! 

I don't disagree with you there, but unless we are all going to go back to subsistence farming, it will not feed the multitudes.

  It started with an ad I saw in the Farmer's Guardian for a Beltex ram. Call this a sheep?? I thought it looked more like a pig, OMG its ugly,

I quite agree - they are hideous!