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Author Topic: Nigerian dwarfs  (Read 5822 times)

New Riverside Farm

  • Joined Aug 2017
Nigerian dwarfs
« on: October 05, 2018, 03:07:06 pm »
Hello

Trying to find nigerian dwarf studs. So a few questions to those who might be in the know:

1. These are challenging to find in the UK. Saw a reference to a Sue in Lincolnshire but no way to contact her. Anyone know her?

2. How much do studs generally run. Ive had quotes on pygmies from 30-75 (quite a span). Rather do nigerians if possible but if not dont want to be scammed with high prices or low balled with less nice studs/farms. Whats reasonable?

3. Anyone know of nigerian studs in the uk?

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: Nigerian dwarfs
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2018, 03:33:08 pm »
No proper Nigerian Dwarfs in the UK. Why do you want them?

New Riverside Farm

  • Joined Aug 2017
Re: Nigerian dwarfs
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2018, 04:20:45 pm »
I've seen some but i want to breed with nigerian preferably to my ggs. I prefer them to pygmies for a few reasons but anyway just trying to find them and i have cone across them but just a bit out there...so thought thus group might have some insights into a direction?

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: Nigerian dwarfs
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2018, 05:31:14 pm »
You have probably seen pygmy crosses. Why do you want to cross a GG?

New Riverside Farm

  • Joined Aug 2017
Re: Nigerian dwarfs
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2018, 06:25:21 pm »
Well I've been on before and I want to eventually breed my GG and GG crosses. The kids would, due to restricted space here, need to be sold on.

As a new goat owner, I am never going to be the dairy extraordinaire - the go-to goat breeder for dairy farmers - so the kids would go out as pets. Obviously pint size goats are preferable for your backyard goat enthusiasts. Not to mention this would be a 1st kidding for my goats, and as I understand, a smaller buck would be better for a 1st kid. So the cross would be for their 1st kidding and it may be the only cross, but we'll see how it goes after 1st kid.

You may say Pygmy as another option of a cross breed, but after reading some information, I think I'd prefer the Nigerian Dwarf to the Pygmy - though it isn't completely out of the race.

So just to get back on track a bit any thoughts on where to find a Nigerian? Or reasonable stud costs?

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: Nigerian dwarfs
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2018, 06:55:04 am »

Breeding to a GGG male is not normally associated with problems for GG's, unless they are already small (and themselves the result of a cross between GGG and pygmy). You will not find it difficult to sell GG kids, especially if they can be registered. Even breeding non-registered stock to a registered male will increase their saleability.


I would be careful with the pet market, there is not a day when there isn't a post on Goaty friends or similar with some sob story about someone having to sell their beloved pet goats… people seem to go into goats especially when - "they will only be pets" - quite often without much preparation. Have you considered rearing male offspring for meat?

New Riverside Farm

  • Joined Aug 2017
Re: Nigerian dwarfs
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2018, 11:41:14 am »
Hiya,

I may do GG the next round of breeding. I always have options to go to! But I think I've found a mostly Nigerian. Apparently the person with the stud actually imported a Nigerian - years ago - from Africa. So the offspring is from a full Nigerian father, and a 3/4 Nigerian & 1/4 Pygmy mother. So pretty close to Nigerian as one can get I'd guess here?

If so, that would be a real rarity to find, so I'd think the offspring could be useful? To get a rare breed of GG and also a rare (here) Nigerian? I've understood from info out there that the Nigerian milk can be very nice.

Our girls aren't registered, and even if so, I've only one full GG. The other 2 are 3/4 GG & 1/4 Togg. So I'd be hard-pressed to registered their kids I'd guess? Our GG girl is a bit smaller as well - so I'd be worried for her 1st kid. Maybe I am wrong, and she is big enough as a GG but compared to my crosses, she is smaller and more delicate.

I'm a bit loathe to go the meat route. It's a valid route of course, and many people do it as I know. But my preference is not to go the meat route, at least not to breed for it. I've avoided Boers for that exact reason as I am little less of a meaty sort of person. I am not vegan, but a little closer to vegetarian.

So I like the Nigerian cross for a few reasons - not deliberately going meat route, smaller buck to doe ratio, a good dairy cross, possibly a good pet route and certainly if this is a Nigerian buck, quite a good rarity factor!

So if I've identified a stud, I've done CAE tests, do I need to worm prior to breeding? Also, any other relevant shots needed for the kids?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 12:28:59 pm by New Riverside Farm »

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: Nigerian dwarfs
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2018, 03:33:57 pm »

Imported from Africa? Now I think I may be wrong, but I would be VERY surprised if you can import from Africa (any country…) to the EU/Britain. Certainly no live route into USA or Canada at the moment, not South Africa (they have really good Boer lines as well as milk lines and some people would be vey keen to get their hands on stock from there!).


I am not sure I would believe that person without some serious background checks. Ask to see paperwork before you buy into that story….


Unless both parents of offspring are registered as Golden Guernsey with the BGS you cannot register their offspring in the GG section, you may be able to upgrade to British Guernsey, but it is a long process and needs milking figures to speed it up. I wouldn't bother.


IMO - the ONLY ethical solution to breeding dairy goats is to eat spare male kids (and if you have too many to rear then PTS at birth), and also females with defects that preclude them from being used as milkers/bred from. Sorry, but it goes with the territory...

New Riverside Farm

  • Joined Aug 2017
Re: Nigerian dwarfs
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2018, 04:09:24 pm »
Hi Anke,

What I said was that I wasn't breeding for eating. Which is different. I don't want to breed meat goats, so am not going in that direction but instead going the dairy/pet as a 1st choice. Which people do choose how they want to breed and not all say I want a Dairy/Meat goat - they breed dairy strictly.

According to this person, parents were imported via Africa to EU to UK...years ago. Any thoughts as to if a 'years ago' is slightly more possible?

I know I cannot register the kids as GG. I think it was suggested in your or Scarlet's message about registered GG's fetching a good price/home but as mine aren't registered, I am unlikely to attract that group. So just commenting that I am not registered and won't likely be doing it, and as you say it would be a palaver to do it. But I wasn't really worried about doing it, just commenting.

New Riverside Farm

  • Joined Aug 2017
Re: Nigerian dwarfs
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2018, 06:04:55 pm »
Scarlet,

To clear up:

1. I said I didn't want to 'breed' meat goats. Why is this such an issue for people? You have a choice for people to want to breed meat goats and some don't - I don't. It's a valid option. I understand males may have issues, I am not being naive, nor am I not planning to know what to do. I simply do not want to breed for meat. This shouldn't be an issue and many people choose their breeding route. I am choosing mine - and would prefer at this point to cease discussing a choice because so many are pro- Boer goat or meat goat production. It's viable for you, great - no judgement. Just not for me. And I'd prefer at this point to stop discussing it as it seems, that as I made a choice to go Nigerian it's a red herring subject. If you want to discuss what I want to do - eventually with males, fine. But I do not want to breed meat. So can we stop there and go to a more productive topic?

2. I didn't say any of mine were registered. None. I said I had one full guernsey and 2 crosses. That's it. No registration.

3. I simply said that the Nigerian, if true, would be a rarity - simply because from what others say on here in forums and you all, Nigerians are a needle in a haystack. It's only logical, not stating any empirical evidence.

4. I know my GG is smaller than the crosses, because of the Togg. Only commenting that she is smaller.

5. I said I did CAE tests. I did them.

6. thank you for confirming the stud fee question.

Sorry but this has gotten a bit frustrating for me. I've been on here a bit, I've prepared a lot of thought with the studs, identified a possible one. I get questions - sometimes more than answers - so I answer those questions and someone says 'aha but you said....' and suddenly we're off course onto another topic about if to breed for meat or not, or if my GG is registered. Most of which I am answering as a question to someone else, and somehow it gets muddled up, and we're on another vein and the train is running and chugging along to a destination, I keep trying to get back on track. It's my trip! : )

So I keep trying to stick to topic here. I want to breed dairy, I do not want to breed meat. I understand males will be difficult, but that is my cross to bear, when it happens and I am aware of it, and I've made my plans - as much as you can - for that possible eventuality. I just don't want to breed meat - period. I've avoided studs that focus in that area for this reason, and I will continue to choose to work in that vein, regardless of others' choices to do otherwise. I want - ideally - to go with Nigerian Dwarf. If I can find one, and it be legitimate. And I'd like to stop there with why. I decided the why for the reasons I did. I do not have registered girls, they'll never be registered - as I noted to Anke for the reason of too much palaver as I didn't get them registered. I did the CAE testing. I know where I want to go with my breeding.

Sorry for the lecture - it just seems like it's kinda gotten off topic with a question, being answered with another question - lots of misunderstandings, and I think some judgements that I choose a non-meat route stud. But this is the thing, people will choose what they choose - and it will be them dealing with the fall-out. If you have males that you cannot use, and therefore you breed to meat crosses - that is great for you. It isn't for me and I'll have to deal with that. I do not take lightly in any way pets being bred and left on the market. I hate how many poor staffies are out there being bred in large numbers, and most seem to go to dog pounds.

Male goats are always a problem for most breeders - and they got to do what they have to do to avoid it, or sort it out. You have your way, I'll have mine.

Sorry for the blunt rant - but would really like this to be back on course of the topic at hand. I am not a fly-by-night breeder. Granted I am not experienced, but I am making the choices I think best for me and at some point, you gotta let people do that without a lecture in how you do it? And I'd like it also, if we don't get strung up on tangents - I feel like I've gotten very few answers, and a lot of questions, which then opened up more questions (sometimes unnecessarily as I've said all along, my goats are crosses, unregistered, my GG was smaller than my crosses - I do know these and why, I am CAE tested - but just saying the tangents go on to new ones and meanwhile my OP is going a bit off-course).

Sorry for the bluntness too...hope this can just get back on track.

cans

  • Joined May 2013
Re: Nigerian dwarfs
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2018, 07:33:56 pm »
Hello

Trying to find nigerian dwarf studs. So a few questions to those who might be in the know:

1. These are challenging to find in the UK. Saw a reference to a Sue in Lincolnshire but no way to contact her. Anyone know her?

2. How much do studs generally run. Ive had quotes on pygmies from 30-75 (quite a span). Rather do nigerians if possible but if not dont want to be scammed with high prices or low balled with less nice studs/farms. Whats reasonable?

3. Anyone know of nigerian studs in the uk?


Its a while since I kept goats but from what I can gather:

There are NO Nigerian Dwarf males at Stud in the UK

hth

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: Nigerian dwarfs
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2018, 08:42:06 pm »

Re the stud goat being ND (even mostly)- I am afraid you are (probably) being conned, sorry.


And I don't breed for meat either, but as my goats have usually more than 50% male kids I need to do something about them…. and the most ethical solution is to raise them here on my holding until a decent size (they are castrated early on and can live with the girls), then they are killed humanely and go into our freezer for fantastic roasts and curries. They are not cost effective (compared to my sheep that live mostly off grass and a bit of hay in winter), but I prefer to do that rather than selling them to an uncertain fate as a pet.

New Riverside Farm

  • Joined Aug 2017
Re: Nigerian dwarfs
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2018, 09:28:19 pm »
Thanks everyone for your help. I am not against help at all and I don't want the males to go to homes to be eventually mistreated. I veered away from the Pygmy because it can get difficult as it's not a pygmy and it's not a dairy. I thought the Nigerian would offer a different mix, of smaller, but still dairy.

I've spoken to a few people, but not always on here, and there are often rumours of them around. Heard about a herd (no pun intended) in King's Lynn...not sure of course. But trying to see what might be out there and if someone is claiming it, how to best tell if it's the real deal or not.

As I understand they are small, like the Pygmy, but a bit more delicate. I've found some - females though - and they look like that, at least in photos. So smaller, and more delicate, facial structure is more narrow. But again, I am trying to discern the difference.

I am new and inexperienced - as I fully admit so my words will indicate as much as well. But in that inexperience is still a passion to find the goats, kids, a good home and I got ideas I'd like to follow through on, at least enough to see if they're viable. I am loathe to go Pygmy route, or other meat market route crosses, and ideally go a dairy mating. Obviously GG's an option, but Nigerian - if found - would be too. Just want to follow it through and it seemed there is/was an option. So I thought I'd go on here to see if you all knew of any, or if not, how to best tell if I got a real deal or a joker con artist. No harm in checking out options right?

harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Nigerian dwarfs
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2018, 10:30:31 am »
No harm at all.


The advice and experience you will find on here, especially in the goat section, I think is second to none.


I very much doubt there is a Nigerian goat stud here for several reasons. Firstly importation, as Anke says, would be highly unlikely as the the disease risk would be enormous and unlikely to be allowed to happen and the costs would be huge. Secondly, I think you said it was a stud billy, where did the females come from that make up the stud? Lastly, once someone has a "rarity" they tend to sell off offspring at hugely inflated prices. There are examples of this in other breeds. No-one seems to know anything about a stud breeding Nigerian goats so I would suspect there isn't one. 


I wouldn't imagine we import many goats from outside the EU so I would start with the import people as if there any Nigerian goats here they had to be imported at some point.




New Riverside Farm

  • Joined Aug 2017
Re: Nigerian dwarfs
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2018, 11:46:38 am »
No harm at all.


The advice and experience you will find on here, especially in the goat section, I think is second to none.


Couldn't agree more which is why I came on here! I'd figured that this is the place to get confirmation of possible options being valid or not. I was only frustrated as it seemed to get in the realm of whether or not the meat option was viable. All I said was I didn't want to breed for it, which is a rather deliberate movement towards it, rather than simply dealing with an eventual outcome. And of course, then so many veins went out of whack a bit. And words get easily misunderstood and we get off-course on 'rarity' 'registered', etc. Still very much want expertise and help though, just want to stay on topic.

I understand now, that many are dubious of the Nubian option but in first coming on here, that was what I was trying to figure out. Are there any? Could the one I found be valid? What are reasonable stud costs? etc.

BTW - not still touting the stud, but the studs ancestors were Nubian and brought over. So he is - supposedly - the progeny of imported Nubians. Just clearing up any misconceptions.

It's a real shame that the Nubians aren't really found here. I've spoken to American counter-parts where they are very popular. It seems a real shame that they were blended out with Pygmies (which are used for meat and pets), and then, according to some information, the UK liked the look of the Pygmies...so characteristic wise, it won out. Seems a shame that there are none left now that are true, or at least close to true, Nubians.

 

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