Author Topic: Please educate me, ram, ewe and lamb?  (Read 7438 times)

andywalt

  • Joined Aug 2010
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Please educate me, ram, ewe and lamb?
« on: September 16, 2010, 08:27:05 pm »
Hiya

when some one has a few minutes spare can you explain please, once I get my suffolk ewes (im not having the norfolk horn ram that was with them) I will get my pedigree southdown ram for nice lambs in the spring, if I wish to replace the eldest 2 suffock ewes and replace them with the best two ewe lambs......is it ok the following year for the pedigree southdown to mate with his two offspring? or do I have to change the Ram? what do you do for rotation?
Suffolk x romneys and Texel X with Romney Tup, Shetlands and Southdown Tup

andywalt

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Re: Please educate me, ram, ewe and lamb?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2010, 09:00:38 pm »
Or would it be ok to keep the same ram for another generation?
Suffolk x romneys and Texel X with Romney Tup, Shetlands and Southdown Tup

andywalt

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Re: Please educate me, ram, ewe and lamb?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2010, 09:25:49 pm »
Come on chaps? how do you rotate your flock? how do you keep your flock young? or have i asked a silly question? no answers coming?
Suffolk x romneys and Texel X with Romney Tup, Shetlands and Southdown Tup

morri2

  • Joined Jun 2008
Re: Please educate me, ram, ewe and lamb?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2010, 09:29:14 pm »
Hi Andy!  Been thinking about this one so have looked it up in my book and I quote:

'It [inbreeding] can produce the uniformity sought by pedigree breeders but a common effect of inbreeding is to reduce fertility and growth rate and to increase lamb mortality....Intentional inbreeding should only be done in flocks which are already superior and are large enough to stand the necessary hard culling.'

My book, incidentely is Kim Cardell's 'Practical Sheepkeeping' - its highly recommended.

Anyway, I think if you just do it once, it may be OK.  The above advice from Mr. Cardell is, I would think aimed at repeated inbreeding.  Food for thought though!!  Be interesting to hear any other views on this.

faith0504

  • Joined Aug 2010
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Re: Please educate me, ram, ewe and lamb?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2010, 09:33:07 pm »
total novice here but surely interbreeding of any kind is not right? is it?

morri2

  • Joined Jun 2008
Re: Please educate me, ram, ewe and lamb?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2010, 09:35:20 pm »
We humans have a bit of a moral hangup with things like this, but we need to look at the logistics of it when it comes to our stock.  But I know what you mean.

faith0504

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Re: Please educate me, ram, ewe and lamb?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2010, 09:37:14 pm »
it will be an interesting subject to follow and see what folk say eh,

andywalt

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Re: Please educate me, ram, ewe and lamb?
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2010, 09:48:32 pm »
all the guys and gals with flocks here and no clear answer yet? it maybe an awkward question ?but year after year your keeping your flocks, id love to hear all your experiances and how you do it as I will start my first flock this year and I want to put a system of some sorts in place and manage the flock. so lets hope the sheppards step up and let us know there practices???

all views appreciated
Suffolk x romneys and Texel X with Romney Tup, Shetlands and Southdown Tup

daddymatty82

  • Joined Aug 2010
  • swindon
Re: Please educate me, ram, ewe and lamb?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2010, 11:08:03 pm »
alot of people use one set of ewes for breed stock then cull the offspring then if they got a good size ewe lamb they get another ram in to put with these we got 1 lamb from dad and daughter breeding from this year we were waiting for the 2 heads or 5 legs  it does happen it is inbreeding but if you want to kill lambs that are born that way at birth then each to there own but i wouldnt recamend it. but then it depends what your after as a breeder as some people do show and dont want any bad miss haps  if this makes sense at all

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
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Re: Please educate me, ram, ewe and lamb?
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2010, 02:21:35 am »
Suffolks have a particular problem with inbreeding as it has produced a defect in the breed, particularly in America.  I can't remember any details at this time of night.
Sometimes 'line breeding' ie sire to daughter or dam to son, is carried out in order to perpetuate a specific desirable trait.  Sibling in-breeding is not so usual.  There is a difference between in-breeding and inter-breeding (cross-breeding).
I like your questions Andy, but there are not always black and white answers to them. In this case, in some instances in-breeding would be ok, but you must be aware that there can be problems.  If you were only breeding for meat, then in-breeding would be less of a problem, but if you are producing breeding stock by in-breeding then you must be careful. 
We breed breeding stock specifically so we do not in-breed unless we cannot help it.  The Hebridean breed came through a tight bottleneck 130 years ago, so all individuals are already closely related, so we try to reduce the effect of that closeness by choosing tups which are as unrelated as possible (from their pedigrees).  We run 5 or 6 Heb tups and 2 Soay tups, and I choose the mating groups very carefully to avoid consanguinity.
The first year, you use one tup.  In Hebs we do not breed lambs, so that tup can be used for two years.  In the third year we would get another tup to use on the daughters, and again the following year.  After that another tup needs to be bought in, or offspring can be used on unrelated ewes.  We could just change the tup every second year and use him over all the ewes, but it can be hard to find a perfect Heb tup with the characteristics we need,. so we use what we have for as long as possible, hence the 5 or 6 tups.  For your Suffolks, which are a numerous breed, one possible answer would be to buy a tup lamb, use him for one season then put him in the freezer and buy another unrelated tup lamb the following year.
A problem with Suffolks is that there is a tendency to use AI from a small number of males or male lines  - these are bought for huge sums, then this outlay is recouped by selling the semen.  The effect of this is to produce the bottleneck we had in Hebrideans but artificially so making many Suffolks closely related. If any of these individuals carry recessive genes for a defect, which is not expressed, then mating them together will give the lamb a double copy of the defect which will then be expressed.  If this is a significant defect then you have a problem, if it is not then you don't.
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NLL

  • Joined Apr 2010
Re: Please educate me, ram, ewe and lamb?
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2010, 08:04:36 am »
cant stand in-breeding in any species, i dont think it gives you much benefit but can give you alot of trouble.

Rosemary

  • Joined Oct 2007
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Re: Please educate me, ram, ewe and lamb?
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2010, 08:09:44 am »
I'm planning to replace the tup every two years, when his daughters come into the flock. Of course, I could use Leo on the six ewes I'm breeding from this year, forever, and get a new tup for Leo's daughters, but I don't really want to keep two tups for only 12 ewes.

andywalt

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Re: Please educate me, ram, ewe and lamb?
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2010, 08:26:14 am »
wow fleece wife what a great answer a truly experianced shepardess !!

So I will not breed from the ewe lambs first year, breed from them on the second year (sheerlings?) i think thats the right term and on the second year change the ram.

thats all makes sence, im more comfortable with that knowlegde but please any more comments will be welcome, all I have to say is there must be a large number of rams cerculating around the country?



thanks all
Suffolk x romneys and Texel X with Romney Tup, Shetlands and Southdown Tup

lachlanandmarcus

  • Joined Aug 2010
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: Please educate me, ram, ewe and lamb?
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2010, 09:01:57 am »
One way of getting an 'extra' year is if you buy ewes in lamb to an ram unrelated to yours. Having done this I have a bigger pool of unrelated ewes to my ram.

I bought an old ram for little £ and used him last year and will use him this. He will then be retired. Coming up for next year I am going to buy in a new ram and use him for 2 years, then he will have to go I guess. I do have a ram lamb from this year so could use him instead if I dont find a nice ram, but only for one year otherwise his sisters will be of age.

I would rather not breed than use a closely related ram, I think theres enough risks of horrid things happening without knowlingly increasing the chances. But then Im breeding for field lawnmowers for our land and for chops for the table, so have the luxury of doing that. I doubt theres much harm in a one off father/daughter mating but certainly would think it a bad idea ongoing.

Freddiesfarm

  • Joined Jan 2010
Re: Please educate me, ram, ewe and lamb?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2010, 09:25:01 am »
Just one question.....  have you stood the southdown near the suffolks?  I have had pedigree southdowns for years and I know my southie rams would never have a chance with any of my suffolk ewes!  Even if he stood on a step!  Don't mean to be a party pooper but the logisitics are important in these things!

On the  ram side of things from a commercial perspective we keep the rams two years.  They can be put to the ewe lambs and are but we never keep lambs from ewe lambs, just because they won't have grown so well etc.  Only put a ewe lamb to the ram if she is atleast 40kg before tupping.

 

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