[SallyintNorth]

I think it's ineffable.  Can't be defined, but you just know

[DavidandCollette]

Hughsey - I think that one of us is on the wrong website

[Porterlauren]

I'm sure that Hughesy has insulted a few people, but he isn't a million miles off at times.

I remember standing in market a few months ago and some cade lambs were being auctioned. They were making £25-£30 and more a head. One of the farmers next to me turned and said something a long the lines of "bloody hell, these smallholders have more money than sense!".

I think there are some interesting descriptions and definitions here. I'll throw another in the mix though. . . . .I think there is a difference between a 'small holder' and a 'good lifer'. . . . . at least in my head.

The couple up the road that have a large garden, both work full time, but manage to produce a huge range of veg and flowers for sale from some very well run poly tunnels and greenhouses, as well as a range of duck, chicken and bantam eggs, poults etc and have planted a very productive little orchard, which provides fruit to sell, are small holders. They both work full time, and use their small plot to feed themselves and supplement their income.

The couple from the city who retired, sold their 4 bed house and bought a chunk of land here, then got a random selection of ponys, sheep, chickens etc, which are pretty much pets (albeit they do eat the eggs and the odd lamb), and have not managed the land very well, or made it at all productive, are to me typical 'good lifers'.

The second can be pretty damn annoying at times! The first are incredibly impressive and I have a lot of respect for them!

[Rosemary]

I guess it's the terminology - I find the term "hobby farmer" incredibly derogatory.

[Womble]

I guess it's the terminology - I find the term "hobby farmer" incredibly derogatory.

That's because you aren't one Rosemary.  I am, and it would be foolish to pretend otherwise.

I never refer to myself as a smallholder because to many it implies someone who is playing at being a farmer.

I read that as tongue in cheek, and Hughesy's post as a whole contains a great deal of truth:

"someone who is playing at being a farmer." - Compared with my neighbours, yes. And as per the hobby farmer label above I don't find that in the least bit insulting. If the cap fits, wear it.  If it doesn't, maybe it isn't your cap!!
 
"They have an example of every type of livestock" - Guilty!

"They've no real need to make it pay" - Yup. And the day I realised it never would no matter what we did was a huge relief to me. Suddenly it took all the pressure out of the situation. However, It did mean me facing up to the fact that I'll be working full time for the foreseeable future, which was not the original plan.
 
"in no way can whatever they're doing be classed as a business, especially as far as the taxman is concerned" - Not guilty on that one, though it will be some time before we even approach making a profit, if indeed we ever succeed in that.

"once they've been doing it for 12 months they feel qualified to dispense advice on pretty much anything to those who aspire to follow." Who, me? 

[SallyintNorth]

If only it were as easy to differentiate on the basis of making money / not making money.

By far the majority of farms have at least one other income - wife works in an office, mart canteen, does cleaning, whatever, and/or hubby does contract work of some sort.  And/or they do B&B or other 'diverse' activity on the farm.

We are very much in the minority hereabouts in that we do not have another income.  But if we had a family, we would have to do something to make more money, we couldn't raise a family on what the farm makes.  And frankly, although BH was comfortable enough on his own financially, the only reason I can get away with not having an income external to the farm is that I have a nice nest egg salted away from my rat race life.  We wouldn't have been able to take advantage of some of the capital grant schemes without that, either, and the farm would by now be in desperate need of some investment.

In fact, thinking my way around the farms in our neighbourhood, I can only think of one where there is no other income and more than one person living off the income from the farm - and they are unmarried brothers, sharing the farmhouse, with nephews working the farm but also having other jobs.  (A much bigger farm than ours, of course.)

A few years ago, there was some research done on farm incomes.  There were very, very few where the profit exceeded the total subsidy income.  Think about that for a minute... it means that almost every farm in the survey area (which certainly included England and Wales but I don't know whether it included Northern Ireland or Scotland) makes a loss without its subsidies.  Now, most of the environmental subsidies are designed to compensate the farmer for farming in a less intensive, less profitable but more environmentally sensitive way, so that perhaps should be expected.  It was still a rather chilling fact to me, though.

[SallyintNorth]

expect their neighbouring farmers to drop everything and help them in exchange for half a dozen eggs.

Nah, that's not it either.  I could but won't name more than one local farmer and/or retired farmer... 

[SallyintNorth]

On the whole 'hobby farmer' thing... many if not most farms have some element that is hobby rather than business. 

Many sheep farms run way more dogs than are necessary, and do trials. 

Many farms have some equines, which mostly are not part of any business plan. 

(There are exceptions with all of these, of course - Derek Scrimgeour and Dave Kennard must make a significant contribution from the dog-related enterprises, some of the big name pony studs do have the equines as a main element of their business, and so on.) 

My house cows do make a contribution, as they rear bought-in calves and feed the lambs and so on, but they're mine for our enjoyment and wellbeing, not part of the business model.  (Although BH had considered multiple suckling with Jerseys years ago.) 

I am trying to make my 'fleece flock' be at least cost neutral, but there's no question I have them for love and enjoyment - and meat, and spinning. 

I recently sold boxed beef, and will do that again - but I'd make more money just sending the animal to the primestock mart.     

And a fair few farms around here have a few pigs, sell a few weaners and some half-pigs - but we all know it's tough to make any actual profit doing that. 

Ours is not the only farm has rather more tractors than we can readily justify

And so on...

[Womble]

So if I called you a hobby farmer Sally, would you laugh or feel insulted? 

[SallyintNorth]

So if I called you a hobby farmer Sally, would you laugh or feel insulted? 

I've always said that BH is a proper farmer and I run a smallholding on the side!  lol

Yes, I guess that I am a hobby farmer.  BH isn't.  I have livestock I like and enjoy and wouldn't keep them otherwise.  I make decisions in a way that differs from how a 'proper' farmer would do, and might keep some of my livestock on that were loss-making for reasons other than business ones. 

But as I say, it's ineffable.  For the most part, BH also has livestock he likes and enjoys and wouldn't keep them otherwise.  (We have switched from continental cattle to natives, and it's made a huge difference to our enjoyment and ability to keep going as we get older.  I think he'd keep no sheep at all though, if he could.  He's a cattle man at heart.)  He has a couple of Dales ponies and walks a hound pup - no profit there!  He loved having a sow and piglets, and would be happy to have that continuing if I were.

We had to have a Jersey heifer pts this week after she injured herself.  I chose euthanasia as it was better for her (and maybe therefore also for me); I suspect he would have gone for shooting.  (No chance of getting the meat used - Friday afternoon.  Of course.  )  We were both very upset and have many of the same emotions and reactions to what happened.  None of mine were expressed, even internally, in pound notes, though.  I did think it was a shame that all that lovely Jersey milk her mum had produced was gone to waste, though.

Ineffable.

[hughesy]

I'm sorry if anyone feels insulted by my comments it wasn't my intention. Looking back maybe I could have worded it a bit better. Generally I'm sticking by it though. Here's another thought so feel free to take offence again if it'll make you feel better
If you're one of the aforementioned "hobby farmers", "lifestyle" types, "goodlifers" etc you'll no doubt be selling the fruits of your labour from time to time. Now whether you make anything out of it, or pay your taxes for that matter is of no concern to me but consider this. Probably not far away from you is a genuine small agriculture based business who is trying desperately to make a living, keep his business going and generally keep the wolf from the door .Imagine what he feels when he finds out that his customer doesn't want any of his produce this week as they've had some cheap off the nice couple over the road. Be it eggs, meat, vegetables or whatever there are genuine small businesses out there who really don't need extra competition from the hobbyists who don't have to keep account of their costs etc because it doesn't really matter to them if they make a profit or not.
It's a free country and people can do what they like, but it's something to think about.

[hughesy]

Hughsey - I think that one of us is on the wrong website

I often think that myself. To qualify my comments I'll outline what I do. We have just 8.5 acres and keep a small herd of mostly British Saddleback pigs. We bring all our piglets up to slaughter weight and take all of them to slaughter ourselves. This year that's about 100 porkers. I do three local markets every week to sell the meat direct to the public with just the odd pig going to a local butcher every now and then. We're in our third year of being market traders having made fairly impressive losses the first two but are on track for a profit this year. We've dabbled with chickens, ducks and geese but find we don't have time for much else than the pork.
What does this make me? A farmer? A smallholder? I don't know.

[Marches Farmer]

If you're one of the aforementioned "hobby farmers", "lifestyle" types, "goodlifers" etc you'll no doubt be selling the fruits of your labour from time to time. Probably not far away from you is a genuine small agriculture based business who is trying desperately to make a living, keep his business going and generally keep the wolf from the door .Imagine what he feels when he finds out that his customer doesn't want any of his produce this week as they've had some cheap off the nice couple over the road. Be it eggs, meat, vegetables or whatever there are genuine small businesses out there who really don't need extra competition from the hobbyists who don't have to keep account of their costs etc because it doesn't really matter to them if they make a profit or not.
It's a free country and people can do what they like, but it's something to think about.

Good point!  Our at cost farmgate egg sales help fund us trying to conserve the rarest of the rare breeds of poultry.  We now have three lifestyle neighbours who sell their surplus eggs over the summer, so only our most loyal customers continue with us, as they sell for 20p a half-dozen cheaper.  Our strawberries did extremely well this summer so I sold them instead.  What's the betting that next year ....?

[SallyintNorth]

once they've been doing it for 12 months they feel qualified to dispense advice on pretty much anything to those who aspire to follow.

We're in our third year of being market traders having made fairly impressive losses the first two but are on track for a profit this year. ... What does this make me? A farmer? A smallholder? I don't know.

Ah, 12 months not enough, 24+ months enough, eh? 

I think everyone's input is illuminating; it's useful to have some idea of how much experience is behind an observation / piece of advice, though.  We've had a few examples recently of googling rather than experience speaking

It's a fact that farmers don't take kindly to being told how to do something by people with a degree and little or no experience, and by newcomers to living off the land whose livestock and/or land are often, to a farmer's eye, in want of proper care and attention.

Most farmers are, however, interested in hearing about new knowledge and techniques.  Just not in a 'we know better than you despite not having the experience and background you do' sort of a way

(BH has farmed all his life; he's over 60 now, and has the benefit of his father's experience too, who farmed into his 70s (dead now, lived into his 90s), and whose father had also been a farmer all his life.  Sometimes I mine his knowledge for an answer on here )

I'm sure there are three-generation smallholding families too, and for sure there are new entrant farmers... But I wonder how many of the latter will still be farming in two more generations' time...    Mind, same is probably true of multi-generation farms now, the youngsters so often don't want the paperwork and nonsense, and poor returns for such hard work.

[Dan]

Probably not far away from you is a genuine small agriculture based business who is trying desperately to make a living, keep his business going and generally keep the wolf from the door .Imagine what he feels when he finds out that his customer doesn't want any of his produce this week as they've had some cheap off the nice couple over the road. Be it eggs, meat, vegetables or whatever there are genuine small businesses out there who really don't need extra competition from the hobbyists who don't have to keep account of their costs etc because it doesn't really matter to them if they make a profit or not.
It's a free country and people can do what they like, but it's something to think about.

This is true of many businesses, it's not limited to farming or agriculture - I develop websites for a living, and everyone's nephew and their dog can build a website and often do, or you do it yourself and use webs.com or the like.

Like farming it doesn't matter - the nephews and DIY'ers aren't my competitors, and neither is the person selling a bit of extra produce the 'genuine small business' up the road's competitor.

If the nice couple over the road selling a bit of produce means your business is in trouble, or someone's nephew doing a website for buttons means my business is in trouble, our businesses were already in trouble.