[Katrina]

Hi. I am after some advice with handling my hebs and what I am doing wrong.  So far I have had two black eyes and a very near miss today from their horns. I am trying to hold/restrain them without touching their horns but their initial head thrashing or wriggling usual ends up with a collision with my face etc. please help before I resort to safety goggles and a crash helmet. Thanks.

[Me]

Use your hands instead! 

[SallyintNorth]

There's no harm in having a hand on a horn.  Just don't use the horn or horns to pull the animal about or to move the head.  Using a hand on a horn to stop it swinging its head is perfectly acceptable.

[Katrina]

Thanks Sally, that's reassuring. I feel that when I am holding the horn i am pulling it because they are swinging their head and I am trying to hold it still, so I have let go.

Me - I use my hands, my thighs, my arms. Anything to keep them still

[SallyintNorth]

Try one hand on horn and one under chin - control using chin, block using horn - and use your body to hold them pressed against the wall.

Remember they will feel more calm once they are firmly held; the more you let them struggle the more agitated they become.  If you let them go you are teaching them to shake their heads 

[Fleecewife]

As Sally says  .  I tend to use my body to crush the relevant sheep against the hurdle, with one knee in front of the chest, and their backside pushed into the corner, second knee above the back leg.  Pushing down a bit on the shoulder with a hand or elbow helps quiet them too, and stops them from jumping upwards and poking your eye out.  Your last hand is for holding onto the top of a hurdle so you are secure.  Then your third and fourth hands can do the task you're trying to do 

I've found that when handling Hebs, get as many as possible into the pen.  Our handling pen is made of hurdles, so once the sheep are in, we can shut the pen down so they are crammed.  Then there's no chasing them round to catch them, so they are much calmer.
If you can handle them calmly throughout, they are more easily manageable. If it's been a bit chaotic getting them in, then go away for 10 minutes to let them settle, before you go in amongst them.  Calm, firm handling, no sudden movements is the best way.  Also, not looking them in the eye, and approaching them sideways or even backwards can catch them unawares. 

Finally, a Heb is easier to handle when it's tipped ie sat on its bum, leaning against your two legs.  Then just one hand on the breast bone, pressing down a bit, will keep them still.  I use this method for injections as well as feet, as if you bend up the chosen leg a little, then the needle will slide into the relaxed muscle much more easily than if the sheep has its muscles tensed trying to get away.
Someone should run a course on sheep psychology 

[Coximus]

Fleecwife has summed up a good approach - I use much the same.

I've found it hellpful to have some bales stacked around the pens, so their held against something that has some give, it also makes it easier to raise their chins for tipping and general handling as you can raise their chin above the bale.
I've found they are a breed respond well to you standing with legs either side, little pressure on the middle of their stomach just behind the midway point, holding them against any surface. Even better if their head is raised on bales - that I have 3 that cannot be handled, they thrash even if tipped, and have given the shearers (3 have now tried them) the opportunity to share new swear words with me. Sometimes you do get a flighty one, especially if it was say reared on the hill in a minimal / almost feral way - the 3 I have spent 4 years unhanded on the fells before I got them. They Will come for a biscuit, but may charge me and wont hang round - if yours are like these - perhaps 3-4 dogs and 2 men per sheep are needed.

[Katrina]

Thank you all, that is really helpful.  I really could do with the third and fourth hand, that is when I call my daughter for help. I have generally been catching them around the trough if one needs attention (not feeding them, just a handful to keep them coming - they have no interest in biscuits so far) and maybe I need to start penning them up to keep them more secure.  I never thought leaving them to calm down, I thought they would probably all escape off given 2 mins to themselves.  I definitely need to practice more, get them used to me handling them.

Once they have stopped the wriggling they are super calm and lovely, but that is usually when the blood is spilling down my face and they are thinking - you could do with some blue spray for that 

[Kimbo]

Oh my word!!!!!!!
I only pop into this part of the forum once in a while for a peep.
I find that if I do it when Ive had a less-than-easy encounter with one of our Ryelands it makes me feel a whole lot better! I take my hat off to you all X

[Me]

You can train them to go into a pen etc by backing off for a few moments when they go in (negative reinforcement training), if you always rush up slam the gate and grab a sheep they learn the pen is to be avoided. If you call the dog off as soon as they go in the pen its a lot easier to get them in after. Some of mine now run to the pen on sighting a dog - not all... but it helps!

[Katrina]

Kimbo, I have Ryelands too, and I really do appreciate that they don't run fast, if they can be bothered at all and can be quite relaxed and trusting.  However one of mine behaves like she has full rigamortis when touched.  The shearer turned her over and said he would wait for her to relax....he waited.....and waited..... and gave up and sheared her whilst she remained frozen solid legs stretched out.  I guess all sheep offer their own challenge. 

Thanks Me - anything to make these sheep realise I am not there to make their life a misery!!