[fiestyredhead331]

After 2 recent diagnosis of Johnes in my herd, I am fast learning about it! Apparently its the goat equivalent of human Crohn's Disease and transferred through fecal matter.
 The goat (big Daisy) I suspect brought it in with her when we bought her 2 years ago but only developed the disease after kidding this year, the rest of the herd have tested negative, so far! Her previous owner told me that Johnes is quite an issue in the area where she came from (Caithness)
After being told by my vet there was no cure and no vaccine.....I have found that while there is no cure, there is a licensed vaccine in the UK which will possibly slow down the effects on the positives who are currently in isolation with their kids who are most likely to be positive too 
So after my research, I find that its quite a common disease amongst sheep and cattle too and rabbits and deer are good carriers!

Good news is that the vet, after some nagging by me about my research, has access to the vaccine, but the only issue I now have is that it will mean that those that I vaccinate will then be classed as 'infected' as they use the organism in the vaccine. Or do I cull  my beloved Daisy, Maisy and offspring, and pray for the rest to remain uninfected and go for negative herd status?.....My heart says one thing and my head says another, same old dilemma. Obviously I would prefer to keep Daisy, Maisy etc until such time as they became ill, at the moment they are both doing ok.

Anyone got any pearls of wisdom to offer?......

[Blondie]

I only have experience of johnes in dairy cattle when I did some work calving and milking. I was lead to believe that johnes was only passed on through the milk, and couldn't spread between adult animals? At the dairy I worked at, any johnes positive cow had her calf taken off her straight away (especially if it was a heifer calf). The milk from these johnes cattle was kept separate to the rest of the milk and only fed to the pens of male calves. As male dairy cows will never get to 2 years, having johnes wasn't an issue.

Maybe the goat version is different?

[fsmnutter]

It is spread through milk, but also faeces in cattle. The body is only susceptible to the infection when young, but it takes a long time to develop signs of the disease. Once they do, however, it is an intense diarrhoea and wasting, with shedding of vast numbers of the bacteria for calves to pick up. Thus separating calves immediately stops them ingesting any colostrum from infected cows and being in contact with any of their dung.
It works similarly in goats and sheep but often without the diarrhoea.
I think it would probably be kinder to send your goats before they got ill, because I cant imagine the slow wasting to be pleasant, and I know a Crohns sufferer, and am allergic to cows milk myself, so suspect they must feel similar cramping due to the disease, and although animals hide illness well, i suspect its not a nice one to go through. As I think this would be best for the 'positive' goats, i would advise sooner than later, perhaps preventing spread to the others.
It is then up to you whether to vaccinate. If you have older goats, they are likely to already have it incubating, or not be affected, theyre much less likely to have just picked it up, but if you have kids, they may have just become infected, or be just about to if the bugs are there. If you were going to vaccinate, it may be worth doing the youngstock, but they may all be ok.
Either way, you will need to test repeatedly as they all age to see that there aren't more becoming positive.
Its a horrible disease and only being ruthless will sort it for good.
Ps, I imagine the tip from the dairy on 'snatch calving' would help in goats too - you take the babies as soon as they are born to a clean area, preferably before they hit the ground

[Roxy]

So sorry you are going through this.  It must be awful.  Not something I know much about, only heard of it in cattle.  I don't think any goat owner would envy being in your position.  Its very easy for us to say cull - but hard for you looking at what seems a well goat at the moment.  A very hard decision.  I think if it were me, I would let them carry on while they were not  showing symptoms.....

[fiestyredhead331]

thanks for all the info 

Roxy, thats my thoughts at the moment, they seem fine, eating well, no scouring and bright enough but if they deteriorate then I will make the painful decision 

What did surprise me though is that with the prevalence of Johne's, that there are no 'clear, tested herds' up here. Most people ask about CAE when buying in stock. I don't plan to bring in any stock in the near future but if I did its something I would now seriously consider. It seems like the bovine TB testing, 2 consecutive clear tests and you get your clear herd status. so now i wonder do I go for the herd status or just vaccinate them all. I suppose when I'm not planning selling kids/goats it would make more sense to vaccinate, if I was a breeder than herd status would be the better option.

[shep53]

 I have seen cattle and sheep ( not mine )  slowly waste away and it was not easy to watch , death or destroyed in each case

[Melmarsh]

I have had firsthand experience of this. I bought a goat, in kid, as a two year old. She kidded, a male so decision made re his fate but the mum started to waste away after he kidding. No milk to speak of and by the autumn I had her euthanased and sent for PM which is when I found out what the problem was. She never scoured and ate normally but never 'did'.My vet at the time and I, after lots of reading had already in thought diagnosed the problem. Have them put down before they start to waste away.

[Melmarsh]

Forgot to say that at the time I had a small milking herd of about 30 mixed breeds and none of the others got it despite all living together in a covered yard, if that gives you any hope. 

[fiestyredhead331]

thanks for that Melmarsh 

your story sounds just like mine, got her at 2 years old, kidded her and all fine, kidded again this year and completely different, produced next to no milk, bottle feeding her kid at the mo with milk from another milker who is clear but the chances are her kid has it anyway.

I know the day will come sooner rather than later when I have to make that call 

[tattycat]

Omg.I really feel for you!! What a call to have to make...
Has anyone tried using herbs to help any symptoms? Eg thyme/garlic/sage for the immune system. Mints/slippery elm for scour. Gotta be worth a go....so sorry.

[fiestyredhead331]

after lengthy discussions with our vet and much googling  we have opted to vaccintae the entire herd.
There may be some of the girls who have so far had negative tests but may be positive but will show no signs until later in life (3-5 years) but at least this way I will happier knowing that those who don't have it won't get it.
It does mean that next kidding we'll have to isolate all the kids from the moment of birth and bottle feed but if it means that we can reduce the risk of transference then thats what we'll do.
Good news is that Daisy and Maisy are still doing well and may show signs of improvement after they are vaccinated 
Neither have any signs of scouring etc which will be when more serious decisions will be made 

[Lesley Silvester]

 

[fiestyredhead331]

well that's everyone now vaccinated so 

it looks like we will have to vaccinate all kids born for years to come as blood/faecal tests can be inconclusive in the mothers for years but at least this way I feel like I am doing something to help/prevent recurrence of this awful disease. Too late for Daisy & Maisy but I suppose if it wasn't for her showing signs of the disease this year we could have been blissfully unaware and had a bigger problem to deal with further down the line.

[tattycat]

For those in Ireland, IML in Bailibourgh are testing cattle. Would possibly do goats if required.

[ScotsGirl]

Does a blood test categorically identify this disease or can in not always show like CAE? I want to test a couple of ewes who are not great to rule it out but don't want to waste my time if it might give a false reading.


Also, if you have it in flock and either you cull or vaccinate, is the ground infected and what do you do when buying new stock ? Surely it means if you wanted to sell on offspring you could be spreading the condition?