[violet]

Does any one know that, if even after delivering all her piglets - or so I'd thought - and the afterbirth, seemed all there to me - that a sow could still deliver another piglet?

Pickle had 9 piglets last night, her second litter, after what had been a rather long & frustrating day for me (From now on I am never going to organise anything major in a farrowing week). So hubby was in charge (please note dear that I am not blame shifting here  ).
He checked her at 7pm & she was showing the first signs of early labour. When I got back and went to see her it was 10pm she had 9 piglets and no afterbirth. Until last night I was led to believe that the afterbirth is usually delivered pretty much straight away after the last piglet & this had been my experience, but a quick check on the pig site to double check how to intervene if I needed to ( never had to before - this is only my third farrowing), I noticed it said it could be as long as 2-4 hours later.
When I went back to check on her an hour later she seemed fine, was feeding her piglets & grunting, but still no afterbirth. I went to gather my emergency supplies & went back to see her about half an hour later. She was shaking & straining, a sign that she was still in labour ( or so I believe) - I sat with her & rubbed her belly to see if I could help her by stimulating any contractions. But still nothing happened. So I went & got scrubbed up & came back ready to investigate her internally, just as I was stripping off, she pushed out a rather large breach piglet. I followed all the procedures, cleared out it's mouth & rubbed it with straw etc, but it was a stillborn. I really regret that my inexperience prevented me from investigating earlier & it may have been different  . So using lubricating gel I started my internal investigation & didn't have to go far, as the placenta was on it's way, so at least no other piglets died.
I waited with her until she delivered the afterbirth, which she stood up to do & then promptly lay on top of it, so I couldn't take it away - but I saw it coming away & it seemed about the same as before. She was really tired by now, poor thing & the piglets were sleeping as they had had plenty of milk. Through out this whole time I counted over & over - 9 live piglets.
This morning I went in to feed & water her & take away the afterbirth. I also quietly cleared away the more prickly items she had made her bed with yesterday  , when I found another piece of afterbirth. I counted the piglets and there were 10     I am totally convinced that this must have happened after I left her last night, has anyone else had a similar experience?

Mum & piglets are doing fine she is eating & drinking & I have given her the relevant herbs & homeopathic preparations that I use - our vets are a long way a way, though they visit the area twice a week. The only really experienced pig person locally is working away at the moment, so if anyone knows of anything that I should check for/ do for her please let me know. Thanks folks 

[robert waddell]

with piglets they are like an airfix kit 2 lines of piglets there should be two afterbirths one for each side Lillian has just said nine times out of ten you will get a piglet in the afterbirth       what herbs and homeopathic do you give

[HappyHippy]

Bruce (who's seen lots of commercial farrowing) say's it's not unusual for the afterbirth to come out seperately and also for a piglet to be born after the afterbirth.
At the point when she was shivering and shaking I would probably have erred on the cautious side and given a shot of oxytocin, this contracts the womb and would 'assist' in getting whatever was still in there, out. It probably wouldn't have made a difference in saving the stillborn one, but it would have got your surprise one out a bit quicker.
Providing she seems well now, eating and drinking and no temperature - she should be fine.
HTH
Karen x

[robert waddell]

forgot to say she lays on one side birthing gets up lays on the other side to complete the job

[Womble]

with piglets they are like an airfix kit

Now there's a line I never expected to read!!     Every day's a school day on this site eh? 

[oaklandspigs]

Yes they can have afterbirth half way through (as Lillian/Robert says there are two sides to clear), at the end.  we have even had one who passed small amounts of afterbirth after each piglet - has only ever happened once, very unusual.

The umbilical cord of the piglet is shorter than the length of tube it has to come out from, so the cord breaks before the piglet exits. It has about 5 minutes to exit after the cord breaks or it dies of oxygen starvation.  Sometimes a piglet can go from one side of the uterus to the other rather than exiting, normally they then reverse (which is usually the ones that come out feet first) and are born OK.  But if they are near the end of those being born they can get "lost" and not come out in time, and are born dead.  Also the last piglet from each side has the longest journey, and can also die if it doesn't get a clean exit.

I have frequently got dead piglets in the afterbirth, and it is not unusual to have a pig give afterbirth, you think she's finished, and then next day there is an extra live piglet quite happily nuzzled up to mum.

When Nature designs an animal with so many offspring, it doesn't intend for them all to survive, so don't beat yourself up on what you might or might not have done right or wrong. Your stillborn was probably dead in the other side of the uterus, and nothing you did/didn't do would have probably made a difference.

[violet]

Thank you all for your replies - I loved the airfix analogy too!

I used Blue Cohosh or caulophyllum 30C to stimulate uterine contractions, followed by Arnica ( I only had 200c) for bruising.

I also gave her sage & echinacea tinctures for anti-bacterial/immune boosting properties, before I left her last night.

I gave her garlic in her feed this morning & repeated the treatment.

Piglets are fine & though she ate some of her food, she's not drinking as much as I would have expected, but she has no tempreture. She's exhausted. She started to get a yucky brown discharge this afternoon, so I've injected her with 10 ml long-term acting antibiotic ( after a brief phone consultation with the vet ) just to be on the safe side. She ate a whole apple after this.


I have had so many firsts in less than 24 hours 

My next question was about stillborn pigs, but I think Oaklandspigs has answered that - thank you.

And I will get some oxytocin in stock for next time - thank you all 

[robert waddell]

violet the colour of the dead piglet tells you if it is the same colour as live ones they died at birth if a darkish colour they died a while ago

[Tudful Tamworths]

I had a litter of 10 one day and thought the sow had finished, having seen the afterbirth. Next day (26 hrs later) there was one dead, one alive.

Incidentally, on the "stillborn v died after birth/during" thing, the only way to know for sure is to do a pm examination. Not for everyone. Cut open the piglet and if the lungs are light pink, it indicates the piglet breathed air; dark and it didn't. Similarly, put a lung in water and if it floats, the piglet breathed; if it sinks, the piglet didn't.

[violet]

Just to let you know that Pickle is back to being her postnatal self!
Some piglets escaped out of the ark & as I put them in she really told me off for trying to steal them   
She is now very worried that I  might try to give her another jab when she isn't looking, whereas last night - even earlier this morning, she would have let me do anything - well nearly 

Thanks Lillian & Liz for the still-born info. I would try a pm if I felt detached enough at the time ( I've only done chickens before & as I despatch & prepare my own, it's a little easier to overcome), I guess it's something that comes with experience. 

Thank you all again, it's been really interesting to hear your experiences.

[dixie]

Can I just add that its quite normal for a sow to shiver during farrowing, dont assume its cold, but quite normal, they dont all do it though! I remember when I had my son I shivered constantly although I was feeling really warm!
And yes quite often when you think its all over another one arrives, our sow had seemingly finished, afterbirth the lot, got up had her dinner and mooched around then 2 hours later another piglet and a large amount of afterbirth too!

[Stevie G]

I will teel you something now, no matter how long you do it, even the experts get court out, so always expect the unexpected and you will still go..........flipping wrong!!!!!!!!!! Thats pigs!!!!!!!!!!

[darkbrowneggs]

Can I just say it is so nice to be a member of an open minded forum on which anyone even mentioning homeopathy is not shot down in flames and then roasted for a couple of months

I have had wonderful results with it.  This week I took a somewhat spectacular fall from some bales onto the nicely swept concrete floor of the barn with one hand in my jacket pocket, so took the fall on my shoulder, cheek and eyebrow.  Note - after plenty of Arnica 30 and Acontite 30 I am now able to type, dress myself, see to the poultry and cook.  And no signs of a black eye even though the skin was broken quite badly.  Not that I havent also taken some Ibuprofen for the pain and stiffness in the morning.

I love Homeopathy (also spelled homoeopathy or homœopathy) for any pedants out there, which hopefully are not too many   And also being part of this online community - Thank you

And all the best
Sue

[robert waddell]

Violet, forgot to thank you for your potions and lotions. It is interesting about the garlic. We had heard that if you feed them garlic it gets rid off the worms, don't know if this is true or not. Also Stevie G's comments is perfectly true, the longer you have pigs the more you learn and some ideas are turned on their head.

[ballingall]

Garlic is supposed to be good for worms. And I think it does work to a certain extent. However, I do know someone who just insists Garlic is a natural wormer, and hasn't given her animals any other kind of wormer for the last 20 years 

So yes it will probably work, but just like they can become resistant to one type of wormer if it used for too long, they can become resistant to the use of Garlic too.


Congrat on the babies Violet- soundds like you did everything perfectly.


Beth