Smallholders Insurance from Greenlands

Author Topic: cph numbers and rented grazing...  (Read 8619 times)

bloomer

  • Global Moderator
  • Joined Aug 2010
  • leslie, fife
  • i have chickens, sheep and opinions!!!
cph numbers and rented grazing...
« on: August 19, 2014, 05:02:24 pm »
ok im just finishing off paperwork for my new sheep and im confused so now i can pick all you lovely peoples brains i'm going too :-)


my lovely new sheep are on rented grazing the owner has a cph number...


i might be accessing some other grazing that currently doesn't have a cph number...


should i use the current owners cph number or do i need one of my own?


what happens about new rented ground that doesn't have a cph number does the owner register it or me???


if someone can either write me an idiots guide or link to one i'd be grateful particularly as the registration for a flock number appears to tie it to one cph number and thats making my head hurt more!!!


if it makes a difference this is all in scotland...

Badger Nadgers

  • Joined Mar 2013
  • Derbyshire/North Staffs
  • Teeswater & Hebridean
Re: cph numbers and rented grazing...
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2014, 05:36:52 pm »
Not sure about Scotland, but in England it's best to have one of your own, as otherwise there might be a standstill on your landlord's land covered by that CPH when there are relevant movements on yours (and vice versa presumably).

They might allocate you a Temporary CPH (600+ series is it?).  There's a few other complications too, like how far away it is (especially under 5 miles) and if it's in different counties, and the length of the tenancy.  Or combinations of the above. 

You might find you get a different answer each time you ring up... My main land (owned) is in  Staffs but I rent in Derbyshire under 5 miles away and was intially told I didn't need one, then that I needed a temp number because of the different counties, but ended up with 2 normal ones.  :thinking:

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: cph numbers and rented grazing...
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2014, 06:55:30 pm »
I would advise ringing Animal Health and explaining what you want to do.  They'll advise on options, pros and cons.  Then come back and discuss here ;)

Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

bloomer

  • Global Moderator
  • Joined Aug 2010
  • leslie, fife
  • i have chickens, sheep and opinions!!!
Re: cph numbers and rented grazing...
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2014, 06:56:29 pm »
ok thats tomorrows job then  :excited:

Me

  • Joined Feb 2014
  • Wild West
Re: cph numbers and rented grazing...
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2014, 07:07:14 pm »
I would advise ringing Animal Health and explaining what you want to do.  They'll advise on options, pros and cons.  Then come back and discuss here ;)
I would advise taking the name of the person you talk to at AH and the time and date of the conversation for when their colleague who probably sits next to them in the office tries to do you for following whatever advice you are given...  experience tells me to assume incompetence and treat all advice with suspicion.

farmvet

  • Joined Feb 2014
Re: cph numbers and rented grazing...
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2014, 11:21:33 pm »
Scotland.gov.uk  topic farming animal health & welfare. Section on livestock id explains most of the rules on tagging movement records etc for Scotland.

ellied

  • Joined Sep 2010
  • Fife
    • Facebook
Re: cph numbers and rented grazing...
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2014, 09:08:35 am »
Does the owner of the land without the CPH want to have one or even know it's an option for them to just phone and get one?  They should have first right to decide since it's free and there are benefits to a landowner to having one eg if they want to rent to other livestock owners in future or want to sell up at some stage and market as a smallholding.  There is also for me simply the feeling of 'owning a holding' which I remember well when I transferred my land to my CPH both times, the first being simply a special moment of achievement of a dream.  Which that owner might not have, but still, their land, their choice. 

If there are no other agri livestock on the holdings concerned then movement standstills don't matter to anyone but you anyway. 

And if the holdings are a few miles apart then I would imagine (though I admit I don't know) that you would still need to register the movement in some way as you are taking potential disease from place A to place B even if you 'hold' both on your paperwork.  In that neighbouring farms' livestock in adjacent holdings will be within transmission range because of your movements, where they would otherwise not be.  As I say I don't know, but it would make sense to register the flock as yours and the two or more blocks of land are held by the landowner with the relevant CPHs.  OK it makes for paperwork for you but a. you may have it anyway and b. it is the system which best prevents/tracks disease.

Otherwise why call the CPH a Holding number rather than a 'livestock holder' number?  It's land registered not people or animals, which is why the flocks/herds etc have separate systems..

Oh and if the holding with the CPH has one section removed and re-registered as 'your CPH holding' or part of it, that affects the landowner's use and decision making on their own land in terms of wanting to shift your sheep elsewhere for convenience or as a favour, crossing between their own and 'your' CPH for any reason etc - unless you have totally separate access that doesn't cross or use any facility of that CPH other than the one you've reregistered..  If you do, then standstill and any disease containment measures taken by government order would still apply anyway.
Barleyfields Smallholding & Kirkcarrion Highland Ponies
https://www.facebook.com/kirkcarrionhighlands/
Ellie Douglas Therapist
https://www.facebook.com/Ellie-Douglas-Therapist-124792904635278/

bloomer

  • Global Moderator
  • Joined Aug 2010
  • leslie, fife
  • i have chickens, sheep and opinions!!!
Re: cph numbers and rented grazing...
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2014, 01:39:35 pm »
my head hurts...


after a lot of phone calls the current advise is i need a landless keeper number (makes sense)


but all my sheep will have to be registered on the owners cph number to register any births...


although im still awaiting clarification of the last bit...


needless to say im not loving the government currently...


i also got a telling off for being confused ??? apparently i should have known all this even though the guidance from the SRPA all appears to be based around ownership of land...


off to make more phone calls... grrr

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: cph numbers and rented grazing...
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2014, 09:15:46 am »
i also got a telling off for being confused ??? apparently i should have known all this even though the guidance from the SRPA all appears to be based around ownership of land...

Oh now that makes me cross.  There you are, doing your best to get it right, asking their advice, and they talk to you like that.  Hardly a good way to make sure farmers / sheepkeepers make an effort to comply with legislation, now, is it?  :rant:

Hopefully that was just one idiot who's frankly bad at their job, and the other people you will have to deal with will be more sensible and do a better job.  :hug:
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

bloomer

  • Global Moderator
  • Joined Aug 2010
  • leslie, fife
  • i have chickens, sheep and opinions!!!
Re: cph numbers and rented grazing...
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2014, 11:38:08 am »
well today i have been issued with a landless keeper number so progress is happening :-)

bloomer

  • Global Moderator
  • Joined Aug 2010
  • leslie, fife
  • i have chickens, sheep and opinions!!!
Re: cph numbers and rented grazing...
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2014, 02:32:37 pm »
and its all done i am officially all legal again!!!


wow that was challenging...


bizarrely the best help i got to clarify everything was from SAMU the people i register movements with, the guy there was fantastic.




SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: cph numbers and rented grazing...
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2014, 12:35:50 pm »
I'm glad you finally found someone knowledgeable and helpful - and congratulations on getting your holding number  :thumbsup:
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

bloomer

  • Global Moderator
  • Joined Aug 2010
  • leslie, fife
  • i have chickens, sheep and opinions!!!
Re: cph numbers and rented grazing...
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2014, 11:52:43 am »
and today i feel all loved, got my book of movement of forms from SAMU and there was a wee note saying good luck with my new sheep  :excited: :excited: :excited:

plumseverywhere

  • Joined Apr 2013
  • Worcestershire
    • Its Baaath Time
    • Facebook
Re: cph numbers and rented grazing...
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2014, 11:58:12 am »
and today i feel all loved, got my book of movement of forms from SAMU and there was a wee note saying good luck with my new sheep  :excited: :excited: :excited:

What a nice thing to do!  goes to show how variable 2 members of staff can be in the same office and how we can get 2 sets of answers.
Smallholding in Worcestershire, making goats milk soap for www.itsbaaathtime.com and mum to 4 girls,  goats, sheep, chickens, dog, cat and garden snails...

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: cph numbers and rented grazing...
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2014, 01:07:10 pm »
and today i feel all loved, got my book of movement of forms from SAMU and there was a wee note saying good luck with my new sheep  :excited: :excited: :excited:

Brilliant.  Good karma, that SAMU person!  :-*
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

 

Rented grazing and CPH numbers

Started by ThomasR (21.88)

Replies: 4
Views: 2170
Last post December 31, 2016, 12:12:22 pm
by ThomasR
Cost of rented grazing

Started by milliebecks (14.8)

Replies: 4
Views: 1866
Last post November 14, 2016, 02:59:43 pm
by milliebecks
Rented sheep grazing prices

Started by thesuffolksmallholding (14.64)

Replies: 5
Views: 3116
Last post January 31, 2018, 06:55:19 pm
by harmony
Flock numbers and CPH numbers, etc.

Started by Startingout (9)

Replies: 18
Views: 1458
Last post February 19, 2022, 11:14:01 pm
by Womble
CPH, movement documents and rented land

Started by clydesdaleclopper (8.61)

Replies: 2
Views: 1924
Last post July 05, 2013, 10:44:29 pm
by Beewyched

Forum sponsors

FibreHut Energy Helpline Thomson & Morgan Time for Paws Scottish Smallholder & Grower Festival Ark Farm Livestock Movement Service

© The Accidental Smallholder Ltd 2003-2022. All rights reserved.

Design by Furness Internet

Site developed by Champion IS