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Author Topic: Cop 26  (Read 10925 times)

Penninehillbilly

  • Joined Sep 2011
  • West Yorks
Re: Cop 26
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2021, 10:44:06 am »
Good to hear all went well for you FW. Not knowing where it's all happening and the layout, I was thinking you were going to be just outside the buildings,  part of the demonstrations, I was quite worried for you and your sheep.  LOL.

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Cop 26
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2021, 02:51:36 pm »
Good to hear all went well for you FW. Not knowing where it's all happening and the layout, I was thinking you were going to be just outside the buildings,  part of the demonstrations, I was quite worried for you and your sheep.  LOL.

Events seemed to have been happening all over Glasgow so it's a bit desperate for people to move around.  They seem to have bought up a fleet of bicycles to help people get around.  We would never have got permission to take sheep in amongst the huge crowds and it wasn't a protest, just a support thing for international indigenous pastoralists, who met Prince Charles amongst other people.
APHA were extremely helpful in making sure we could get there legally, had to go to the top of Scottish Gov.   :thumbsup:.
We were in a bit of the old docks at Govan, which is almost opposite the conference centre, between BBC Scotland and the QE hospital. There's a community effort to establish a wetland in the old dock area which will eventually be nice, including veg beds amongst the wild plants for the use of those round about. It will make a good hub for local people in what is not the most salubrious area of the city :D.  There were many comments from local people of "sheep in Govan? Well that's a first!" but everyone loved them, especially shepherds from overseas who could get a little sheep fix.
I'm knackered today but so glad we did it.
We were expecting a very long journey there and back following all the warnings of travel disruption but it wasn't much worse than 'normal' Glasgow traffic.
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

Rupert the bear

  • Joined Jun 2015
Re: Cop 26
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2021, 03:18:56 pm »
Jolly well done for making the effort, as long as you took back the same number of sheep that you arrived with.
Its probably the first time some of the "weegies" have seen sheep.

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
  • Qui? Moi?
    • ABERDON GUNDOGS for work and show
    • Facebook
Re: Cop 26
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2021, 04:01:41 pm »
Jolly well done for making the effort, as long as you took back the same number of sheep that you arrived with.
Its probably the first time some of the "weegies" have seen sheep.
You DO know that 'weegies' is a derogatory term don't you?  :innocent:  And I think you might be surprised at how many of us know about all sorts of animals  ;D  We're not all stupid toonsers  :excited:
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

Rupert the bear

  • Joined Jun 2015
Re: Cop 26
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2021, 05:53:53 pm »
I'm so sorry you feel offended, in My part of Scotland its no considered derogatory, however I offer My unreserved apology.
Rupert the Bear, not a Scottish native !

Penninehillbilly

  • Joined Sep 2011
  • West Yorks
Re: Cop 26
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2021, 10:53:31 pm »
Jolly well done for making the effort, as long as you took back the same number of sheep that you arrived with.
Its probably the first time some of the "weegies" have seen sheep.
You DO know that 'weegies' is a derogatory term don't you?  :innocent:  And I think you might be surprised at how many of us know about all sorts of animals  ;D  We're not all stupid toonsers  :excited:


Well, I had to Google it, first meaning was someone born n bred in Glasgow. 2nd meaning not a pleasant person, so both right?  :)

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: Cop 26
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2021, 11:09:07 pm »
You DO know that 'weegies' is a derogatory term don't you?

Is it?  ???  I'm not quite from Glasgow, but pretty close and I've never thought of it as any more derogatory than Scouser, Geordie, etc etc. My favourite term is Wiglie - Work in Glasgow, Live in Edinburgh. I used to get the train with a few hundred of them every morning  ;D .
« Last Edit: November 07, 2021, 09:44:06 am by Womble »
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Cop 26
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2021, 12:05:54 am »
Years ago we had a couple of allotments in 'Embra' (that's Edinburgh, not offensive, just as 'weegieland' isn't, they're both nicknames, pet names, shortenings - sorry Annie).  Anyway, we had huge floods there one year, many allotments washed away completely, the rest drowned, crops ruined.  The family who had the plot next to ours arrived and one of the children said "oh look our allotment's like a paddy field" - whack - waa - whaat?? "We never use that word, it's not nice".  Yes the family was Irish and thought the child was being offensive, which he was not, he meant it was like a rice paddy.  It's easy to take offense nowadays and easy to take offense at something which isn't offensive.
And there was me enjoying speaking about my day out in Glasgow at such a big important event  ::)


Several people from far and wide made a point of coming to me to tell me how lovely and friendly the people of Glasgow had been to them.  To think these ordinary people had taken the time, given up their holidays, spent their money, taken a big risk of travelling halfway around the world during a pandemic, to demonstrate their concern about the state of our planet and the probable fate of the human race.
@Rupert the bear I loved meeting such amazing people so it wasn't an effort at all, just the least we could do for such lovely people visiting our country  :thumbsup:   They had their big march today; you may have seen some of the indigenous people and the marchers for food sustainability and justice on the TV news. About 100,000 people were there to show what they feel - Brilliant  :yippee:
« Last Edit: November 07, 2021, 12:19:19 am by Fleecewife »
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

Rosemary

  • Joined Oct 2007
  • Barry, Angus, Scotland
    • The Accidental Smallholder
Re: Cop 26
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2021, 06:53:48 am »
I've never thought of Weegee as a derogatory term at all. In fact, I don't think many folk do. https://www.refuweegee.co.uk/
I'd see it as a term of affection.

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: Cop 26
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2021, 08:02:00 am »
You DO know that 'weegies' is a derogatory term don't you?

Is it?  ???  I'm not quite from Glasgow, but pretty close and I've never thought of it as any more derogatory than Scouser, Geordie, etc etc. My favourite term is Wiglie - Work in Glasgow, Live in Edinburgh. I used to get the train with a few hundred of them every morning  ;D .


So did I.... many moons ago now... (and I hated it), and always wondered why probabyl the same number of people went the opposite way every day...

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: Cop 26
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2021, 09:53:21 am »
Oh, you mean the Ligwies? I was one of those for a few years too! {Alright, I'll stop now - back to climate change}.

So, genuine question - how bad for the planet are our sheep? You know, the farting, belching balls of wool and mutton we have running around our fields.  Should we be re-evaluating our lifestyle choices here? 

I worked for a biotech startup in the alternative food sector for a couple of years and all their stats would make you believe it's terrible. However, when I looked into it myself I was far from convinced. For example, one oft-quoted stat about water use for farming was calculated by dividing the annual rainfall on a field by the kg of meat it produced in a year. Is that really fair? If so, car parks are even worse since they use the same amount of water but produce no food at all.

So whilst there is time for a moral debate later once we have evidence, right now I want to know how bad I'm really being with what we grow, buy and ultimately eat, and if there is a way to get better. Does anybody have some well-researched stats?
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Cop 26
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2021, 01:35:52 pm »
Well @Womble that's the trouble, the only available stats are not well researched.  As I've mentioned before endlessly it's just not possible to measure an animals 'emissions' in a field setting. The conditions in a laboratory require the cow, sheep, goat whatever to be in an airtight 'room' with inputs and outputs measured, so they can't be eating grass which is their normal diet.  I can't quote stats but I understand that being fed grain upsets the microflora/fauna of the rumen etc, so their output of products of digestion differ from those found in animals eating their normal natural diet.
Actually I've only ever seen research results for cattle so I can't say if the published figures have simply been extrapolated or if actual measurements have taken place for other ruminant species.


I have trawled through as much of the scientific papers as I can find online until my head was spinning and one thing stood out.  Scientists themselves are questioning the accuracy of the published results.  I saw quoted that one particular set of stats was found to be minus 62% to plus 300% representative of the actual rounded up result quoted - can't remember what for.  Science acknowledges that it is indeed impossible to measure ruminants emissions in the field accurately, or even at all, and it seems no-one has tried!


The stats quoted don't take into account the sequestration of GHG's such as Methane, Nitrous Oxide and CO2 into sward, soil and trees/shrubs. Some of these are in the form of gaseous emissions but also as dung which decomposes directly on the ground and in a healthy system is taken back into the soil, to feed the next crop of grass, which is of course eaten by livestock again - all very circular and neat. In a lab, the dung is cleared away into a dung heap - do they measure the gases given off and include those in the calculations?  Given that the UK does not include GHGs produced in international travel to and from the UK and for goods transport, nor the emissions generated by other countries in manufacturing and producing goods for our consumption, including wood for wood chip boilers from virgin forests, nor the GHGs produced by our rubbish exported to other countries for disposal, as part of our own GHG emissions, then probably not. Drax power station is judged to be carbon neutral or nearly so because the wood it uses comes from overseas and we merrily ignore the destruction of non-coppiced source forests and the vast transport costs to bring it here. So green.


I think the only activity the official stats support, is for those lucky ruminants chosen to be shut in a lab box to have their emissions measured!  A worldwide rural industry, that of raising meat to feed our population of 7.5 billion and growing, is under threat, with a perhaps unintended consequence of mass starvation when the big bods discover that you truly cannot grow veggies on a mountain  ::)


So what damage are we doing to our environment by growing food on our land? I feel that it's no more than we do by simply being alive and living. Listening to people chatting on TAS I think most of us don't pour on the chemicals, we don't overstock, we don't keep caged birds and feed-lot cattle, our sheep live extensively as do our cattle and goats, and our buffalo. If humans were not here, there would still be animals on the land producing some emissions, which would be sequestrated into the ground and the vegetation and recycled into that ecosystem.  As smallholders we try to emulate that way.  Some of us produce a bit of excess and we sell that on - I'm not sure where that fits in the equation.
Having met people in other areas of the world who keep livestock, I see that their methods are similar too. They keep animals on land which is suitable for them and without humans would have a similar type and density of animal occupation.
The damage to the environment is caused by cutting down our forests and draining our wetlands to feed our greed for enormous and frequent portions of cattle meat.  A pound of steak at a sitting? That is greed pure and simply totally unnecessary.
I can't quote figures for you - I have seen a selection enough to suggest to me that a whole load of pertinent and well executed scientifically accurate research still needs to be done, before we destroy our earth systems even more in our efforts to improve.
I would be delighted to see any results you can find womble.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2021, 01:37:27 pm by Fleecewife »
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

Penninehillbilly

  • Joined Sep 2011
  • West Yorks
Re: Cop 26
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2021, 06:55:25 pm »
Wow FW, quite a lot to take in there, all interesting and ive been reading bits out to hubs., didn't know Drax imported wood, he says they take it in in trainloads, how can that be sustainable? Absolutely ridiculous. know they have farmers growing short term coppice, they seem to keep quiet about the rest of it. believe some are using miscanthus, all very well to be converting fields to feeding the power stations, but what about feeding humans?
But FW, they aren't going to grow veg on the mountains, they are going to take all our animals and turn them loose up there (so say the naive 'know it alls', who just repeat what they've read). Then I suppose when the animals starve to death it will be us that caused it, or when they come down and break into fields what will happen then? (Bit tongue in cheek there :) )



But can someone explain what was on the radio recently, the phrase, interestingly, was '
'methane, the most damaging GHG, after CO2' (interesting way of putting it, CO2 almost an afterthought). However, they said as methane breaks down quicker, they are concentrating on reducing methane emmisions to get to the 2030 target. So, surely they would be better getting the CO2  down, rather than it building up long term for the future generations.
Or, me being cynical, is it because money power is behind the CO2 emissions?

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Cop 26
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2021, 02:35:30 pm »
Between feeding power stations and feeding our vehicles, you do wonder how much land will be left for producing food.  It's as if those who make the really important decisions can't see beyond whether or not the populace will accept what they pronounce. That seems to be the  principle behind how we as a country have dealt with the pandemic - not lockdown because it's essential, but half measures because people won't still vote for us if we order a full lockdown response.  'Playing with people's lives' is a cheesy idiom, but in this case it is literally true.


I have heard of this daft idea of just letting out all the domestic livestock, even pets, to fend for themselves.  What evil carnage that would cause, and mass starvation - for humans as well as animals. My opinion of much of humanity is not very high some days, but that one just takes the biscuit.
As for everyone having to become vegan, I have been assured many times, especially on one particular online University course, that there is enough land in the world to feed every single human being with a vegan diet.  This when we can't feed everyone yet fairly, with a small majority overstuffing themselves at the expense of others with absolutely nothing. Almost all the students taking that course were already vegan so my little voice was drowned out. That was horrible  ::)

This article https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/8/1/015009?gclid=Cj0KCQiAsqOMBhDFARIsAFBTN3ddVxF2iDswjy3JcVlz3Nxw1nBpbVBxl97QrEqAFZW09DJbSJyof9gaAuIPEALw_wcB   shows how little up to date data we have on world agricultural outputs of GHGs

https://carboncopy.eco/local-climate-action
South Ayrshire emergency climate plan:  'Emergency not yet declared'.  Apologies for picking out South Ayrshire - there are plenty more which haven't noticed there's a climate emergency yet.  If anyone else watched the 2nd Worzel Gummidge film the other night, perhaps like the council there, the members hold their meetings in the pub. Before I get hounded again by someone threatening legal action that was a small piece of humour...

I'm partway through this article which looks promising on how agriculture can mitigate it's GHG impact:
 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0269749107003016

My favourite of the many acronyms the UN in particular has set up to sort climate change is the UNFCCC - the United Nations Framework Undertaking on Climate Change - the UNFUCC (it is of course a 'convention' not an 'undertaking' but it rolls off the tongue so much more satisfactorily  :eyelashes: )

https://unstats.un.org/unsd/environment/envpdf/unsd_EAC_Workshop/Session%208b_Anand%20Climate%20change%20and%20GHGs.pdf   This article is very long but goes into extreme detail whilst trying to simplify things.  You might find the answer to your question in part 2 (scroll down a long way) @Penninehillbilly but I have just frazzled my brain temporarily  :tired:
« Last Edit: November 08, 2021, 02:39:25 pm by Fleecewife »
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Cop 26
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2021, 05:21:23 pm »
If nothing else, the last link I posted above shows just how impossibly complex is the whole job of the UN re climate change, and how difficult it is to abstract the most important and relevant data.


The potentially most useful of the links for us, the one on agricultural opportunities to mitigate GHG emissions, is unfortunately in the form of a PDF which can only be opened via one's University of whatever, or has to be bought.  I am trying to access it by going through the current course I'm doing which is with Edinburgh Uni.  Has anyone else got access?  This is a wall I hit so frequently when trying to access data.
Elitism in information access  :o
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

 

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