Smallholders Insurance from Greenlands

Author Topic: Marshy grassland and sheep  (Read 4580 times)

tommytink

  • Joined Aug 2018
Marshy grassland and sheep
« on: August 01, 2018, 12:53:24 pm »
Hello all,

Have just found this site and hoping it proves useful as I am shortly to enter the world of smallholding.

I wondered if any kind of marshy grassland is suitable for sheep; or if any sheep are suited to marshy grassland? The place I am looking to buy has been assessed and a portion of it at least could be susceptible to getting wet. It's in Wales, around 3 miles from the coast at Cardigan Bay. The assessment denoted the land type as marshy grassland - it has an infestation of rushes and has been classed as semi-natural.

I've been advised that it would need to be topped/baled, grazed down, and then herbicide used for the rushes. But once the land is back to looking like "proper" grazing land, what can I do with the boggy bits? I know I can try and treat any affected areas by adding drainage, but if this doesn't work, is it totally unusable? Are there any animals you could have on wet ground? Trying to figure this out before a final commitment.

Many thanks!

honeyend

  • Joined Oct 2011
Re: Marshy grassland and sheep
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2018, 02:12:32 pm »
You want to look at the types of sheep grazed on salt marshes.
https://www.gowersaltmarshlamb.co.uk/
I have wet clay and have some rushes but ponies graze them to the roots so I would never bother to spray.
  Unless you have a lot of buttercup or ragwort I wouldn't bother spraying, sheep tend to eat anything and I top thistles the ponies with not eat.
   Unless you want to spend a lot of money drainage is pointless better to work with it and plant grass and herbs that thrive in the wet. The up side is that you should still have a bit of grass when it dry.
   If you have no stock now I would wait until its wet, and find out which is your high dry ground so you can plan out any shelter on that bit, and what direction the wind comes in from. 

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Marshy grassland and sheep
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2018, 04:56:51 pm »
Further to Honeyend's post, I suggest you wait a whole year whist living there to see what the ground is actually like, not just its official classification. I recommend that for all new holdings, not just one with a specific problem. I know that's not totally helpful when you're trying to make up your mind whether to buy or not, but seeing the land through four seasons before you make any big decisions, rather than just seeing a snapshot, is always a good idea.
Remember too that if the ground is really wet,then you will be restricted in getting machinery on it.
If you have ticks in there, and rushy ground often does, then make sure you put sheep on which have already been exposed to ticks, or make sure they are treated regularly, as naive sheep ie not previously exposed, can react badly and die.
Don't rush into buying - the right place for you will come along  :)
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SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Marshy grassland and sheep
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2018, 10:08:11 pm »
Until two years ago I was farming in the uplands of Cumbria and, prior to that, moorland in Northumberland.  A great deal of the ground on both farms was marshy.

Some areas of this type of ground had been reclaimed in the way that you describe, and indeed some of the ground needed some sort of drainage if it was to be useful at all.  It’s a lot of work, environmentally frowned upon these days, and needs ongoing maintenance.  And much of the ground does become rushy again, over not very many years, requiring considerable topping and weed-wiping to maintain a balance between grazing ground and rushes.  And it’s a balance you want, with the rushes helping to manage the water, provide footing for human and livestock, and also much-needed shelter, especially to lambs and calves.

The right sort of sheep can make use of most ground, I found, but whether you want to choose your sheep to suit the ground, or have a specific type of sheep in mind and wouldn’t want to adapt, could make the difference between managing and not.  On the moorland we, and all the farmers around about, had Swaledales and Blackface sheep.  I guess in Wales there will be Welsh Mountain sheep, the black and the white varieties.  On the upland, still wet for most of the year, and sodden in wet winters, a more commercial Texel-type sheep, bred to the ground with Blackface ancestry, managed - but did take some care.

I would advise driving and walking around the area and seeing what sheep are being farmed there.  Talk to some of the farmers about what sheep suit the ground, and how they manage the drainage and the rushes.  Ask them what sheep - or other livestock or product - has been on the ground you are looking at buying over the years, and with what success.  (We could never understand incoming buyers not asking us locals for our views on the ground before they bought and stocked.  Most farmers are helpful folk and would share their knowledge and perspectives willingly.)

But if your heart is set on Zwartbles, or a cuddly Down breed, you might find this ground doesn’t work for you.

Another option might be to use this ground only in summer, or at least not in winter.  You can’t get the stocking density on marshy ground that you can on better grassland, but the grass that does grow between the rushes (provided you top about a third each year so they don’t get completely dominant) is sweet, the sheep love it, and the flavour of sheep fattened on it cannot be bettered.  If it’s been overstocked through winter, however, the grass will struggle to come through.

On stocking densities; the usual ‘rule of thumb’ for good grassland and average sheep is 5 sheep to the acre.  On the moorland we talked in terms of number of acres per sheep!  And those Swaledale sheep, which are scrawny and very light on the ground.  Both farms had about 2 acres per sheep, but the upland farm also had cattle on the ground through the summer, and a few hardy ones outwintered on some of the ground, including some of the marshy ground.

Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

tommytink

  • Joined Aug 2018
Re: Marshy grassland and sheep
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2018, 09:59:31 am »
Thank you all for the advice - we decided against going ahead with the purchase. The land itself only amounted to 3.5 acres so there wasn't much to play with if a portion of that was going to be unsuitable. We did ask the neighbour who said their adjacent field was also wet. They rented it out and had some sheep on it (so it looked much better condition) but obviously if it got boggy etc whoever's sheep they were would go somewhere else, which we wouldn't have been able to do.

We viewed another property with much better land and have had an offer accepted; however there are different types of issue with that one. Starting to wonder if I'll ever find anywhere!

Backinwellies

  • Global Moderator
  • Joined Sep 2012
  • Llandeilo Carmarthenshire
    • Nantygroes
    • Facebook
Re: Marshy grassland and sheep
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2018, 07:34:34 am »
If you are buying a smallholding in Wales EXPECT rushes and damp fields …..  it is a very lucky (or rich) purchaser who finds a dry flat holding in Wales ….. but that is its charm :)    3.5 acres however is juts a big garden! …..   personally if you want to have livestock then anything under 8 acres of grazing land is too small (your stocking rates will be low)  at 2-3 sheep an acre 8 acres gets you a small breeding flock.

Sally's advice is good …. however you are unlikely to have the equipment the local farmers have to maintain their fields (they plough up and reseed and spray (which of course requires a sprayer licence) regularly.  Smallholders tend to top and graze …. and spray if they find a friendly person with sprayer cert.

Study conservation grazing ….. it may be something you might consider ...produce your own oasis of biodiversity :)

Lots of holdings for sale here in Carmarthenshire …. what is your budget?
Linda

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nimbusllama

  • Joined Nov 2010
  • Near Mansfield, Nottinghamshire
Re: Marshy grassland and sheep
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2018, 08:02:26 am »
If you are buying a smallholding in Wales EXPECT rushes and damp fields …..  it is a very lucky (or rich) purchaser who finds a dry flat holding in Wales ….. but that is its charm :)    3.5 acres however is juts a big garden! …..   personally if you want to have livestock then anything under 8 acres of grazing land is too small (your stocking rates will be low)  at 2-3 sheep an acre 8 acres gets you a small breeding flock.


That is a bit sweeping and discouraging for a new smallholder!  I have 1.5 acres split into 4 paddocks and have had up to 13 Primitive sheep on it and 2 llamas.  I am sure there are 'horses for courses' so it depends what the person wants to do.   

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Marshy grassland and sheep
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2018, 08:52:19 am »
If you are buying a smallholding in Wales EXPECT rushes and damp fields …..  it is a very lucky (or rich) purchaser who finds a dry flat holding in Wales ….. but that is its charm :)    3.5 acres however is juts a big garden! …..   personally if you want to have livestock then anything under 8 acres of grazing land is too small (your stocking rates will be low)  at 2-3 sheep an acre 8 acres gets you a small breeding flock.


That is a bit sweeping and discouraging for a new smallholder!  I have 1.5 acres split into 4 paddocks and have had up to 13 Primitive sheep on it and 2 llamas.  I am sure there are 'horses for courses' so it depends what the person wants to do.

But you’re not in Wales ;).  Or other Severly Disadvantaged Areas.  And that’s the point. Land is cheaper in SDAs and similar precisely because you can do a heck of a lot less with each acre.
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

tommytink

  • Joined Aug 2018
Re: Marshy grassland and sheep
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2018, 02:22:32 pm »


But you’re not in Wales ;).  Or other Severly Disadvantaged Areas.  And that’s the point. Land is cheaper in SDAs and similar precisely because you can do a heck of a lot less with each acre.

Crikey - a Severely Disadvantaged Area sounds like serious stuff!!

I appreciate we're not going to find completely perfect pasture, but if this land had ever been used for animals it certainly wasn't within the last 20 years. I wouldn't have minded too much if there was more land in total as at least then I could have rotated. I'm not looking to make having animals a business, it's just for the experience, lifestyle, and hopefully enjoyment of it! I find the issue is that estate agents use the terms "smallholding" and "farm" rather frivolously, even when there's only half an acre! This property has now gone back on the market, but at least they've removed the word "grazing" and are clearer that the five acres is the plot in total...


Lots of holdings for sale here in Carmarthenshire …. what is your budget?

Our budget is around 350k cash, with leeway to go higher depending on what a property offers. We've been searching for about a year now, a 40 mile radius using Cardigan as a start point, and are getting to the point where we think it's impossible. Saw one we liked originally but it was a little bit more than we'd planned (although now it would've been what we're looking at spending  ::) ) but also we had a bad time selling ours with the world's worst buyers (we had no experience of selling a house before and it ended up being a nightmare lasting six months). We made an above-ask offer on one and the sellers went for the asking price people because they "sort of knew them". Then we got outbid on another, tried to go back with a higher bid a week later but were obviously told too late (but had to give it a go). Just difficult not being local as we can't just pop wherever it is and have a look, we usually have to wait for the weekend, and the decent ones go so quickly it feels like you don't have time to think about anything. All we end up doing is having regrets  :'(

 

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