[Lesley Silvester]

My older goat was 10 in April. Early this evening I saw that my younger goat was pawing the ground, then charging at Pom, the old one. I kept an eye on them and saw that Pom was lying down and trying to get up. As soon as she had made it but before she could get her balance, Caldi butted her and kcocked her down again. I called my OH to come and help as I wanted to get her back in the shed but she managed to get up again and into the shed. Meanwhile, Caldi had her hackles up and was threatening to butt, first Pom then me.


Pom flopped back down in the shed. I've put hurdles out to separate the shed so Pom can get some peace from being butted. I stroked her and realised that she is incredibly thin. I noticed that she was thinner but she suddenly seemed to be so much thinner. I gave her some ivy, hawthorn and jostaberry twigs which she loved. Then made up some concentrates, which they only get as an occasional treat now. She quickly polished it off. She's been eating normally up til now and has ad lib hay and a daily bucket of chopped carrots, cabbage and any other veggies I have around.


What worries me is that her mum died at the same age and suddenly lost a lot of weight and had trouble standing. Is this likely to be Pom's time?I wondered if Caldi's behaviour meant that she knows Pom is close to death and is staking her claim to become top goat.


Any ideas?

[pharnorth]

I am sorry to hear that. I once had the experience of two goats who typically got on alright when the dominant one started behaving in this way, and like you I suddenly realised how poor the weaker one was looking. So I suspect it was a fast loss of condition. It was never quite clear on the sequence of events, worms,  a shock from a fox or dog killing a chicken, or fly strike, all came at once. It was a young goat and it did pull through with a lot of care and is still doing well 5 years later. So I agree the aggressive behaviour is the effect of seeing the weakness in the other goat, not the cause.  Maybe it is Nature's way of reducing the suffering time of weak members of a herd. In my case it wasn't about claim to be top goat as the aggressor already was top goat. 

[Anke]

Yes I think you are right ... Not sure what you do in that situation if you only have two goats though…


Has the older goat lost some or all of her front teeth?

[bj_cardiff]

I've had a few elderly goats that the younger ones did pick on the older goats as they got weaker. The older goats were usually the dominant ones and the younger ones just saw their moment to take over I think..

I've just had to PTS a 14yr old goat, she couldn't hold any weight and had trouble getting up and down.. If she looks frail I think it might be her time? Obviously, I assume she's been wormed regularly, you could ask the vet to take a look at her? 

[Lesley Silvester]

She looks a bit better today. I gave them both concentrates again - just a small amount for Caldi but twice as much for Pom and kept them separate overnight. Pom managed to get up today and has been in the yard. Caldi is still being a bit of a bully even when I spent time sitting in the yard with them. I've had a good look and she is all bones with a bit of skin over the top. It doesn't look as bad as it is because she still has her winter coat. I gave her a brush and she has hardly any loose hair.


Anke, she has all her teeth at the front. She eats more slowly than Caldi so it's possible she has lost some back ones. There's nothing wrong with her appetite either and she is peeing normally. Not sure about poo but I assume she would be bloated rather than look skinnier.


Pharnorth and bj, I don't worm my goats on the advice of the vet because they are zero-grazed. The only time they have been on grass was for a week over Christmas when they stayed with Beeducked's goats so we could go away. The grass was very sparse, being winter. Surely having worms would have shown signs after this time. The vet was out to them a few weeks ago as Caldi had developed scald and he examined both goats. He didn't comment on her condition then but, as I said, she seems to have lost condition very quickly.She's always been the dominant goat even when I had Caldi's mum who was very aggressive with people but not with other goats.


I suppose I am particularly anxious because once she has gone, I will rehome Caldi and that is the end of my time as a goatkeeper. This is totally due to my poor health not because I want to stop.

[Anke]

If you can keep them separate and feed her well, she should be fine, as long as she can get up and isn't in pain. You could also add molasses/glucose to her water (and give her warm water rather than cold) to increase her energy intake.


Have you got a home for the younger girl sorted for when the time comes, you may have to make a decision at very short notice?

[pharnorth]

Oh dear MGM!  The inevitable is the inevitable I suppose but I do hope you have a bit longer with them as you clearly enjoy and love them so much. I wasn't particularly suggesting she may have worms, it was more a comment on my goat being weak and that was a cause. Having said that, even a week on sparce grass grazed previously by other may have caused an issue as it is more likely that she has low resistance to the having not been previously exposed, and possibly was already weakening.  Also, I don't know but suspect sparce grass would harbour more concentrated populations or at least be more likely to be eaten than lush grass. Anyway may be putting past your Vet whether a FEC is worth doing.

If you feed them individually it isn't a factor but my two weren't milking goats so we're fed together. With the benefit of hindsight the slower eating less dominant goat was getting a lot less and that was possibly where my problems started.

Anaemia was also a factor. Dare I say a good multivitamin tonic with iron made quite a difference over a few weeks.

[mart6]

Agree re could be Anaemia a contributing factor check eyelids

Could well be internal parasites i would worm/fluke treat her if anaemic
https://edenhills.wordpress.com/2012/07/22/anemia-in-goats-causes-symptoms-and-treatment/
https://edenhills.wordpress.com/2011/04/15/anemic-goats/

[Lesley Silvester]

I was thinking about getting an FEC done. I'll also check her eyelids and back end. Thanks for the links, mart6.


Pharnorth you are not wrong on the one goat getting less. I gave them their vegetables in two buckets this evening, one in each side of the shed. Caldi kept rushing me to get to Pom's bucket even though there was food left in hers. Twice I dragged her back to her own side after which I put a hurdle across the doorway. I wonder if cutting out concentrates was the right thing to do. I did it on the advice of experienced goat keepers but I do wonder now. I'm going to give them daily, with Pom getting more (and shutting her in with her bucket.


Anke, molasses is a good idea. I think that would help if she is anaemic as well. I have some in the cupboard left from kidding times. Yes, I have a home lined up for Caldi so she won't have to be on her own for long.


Thanks for the help, folks.

[Beeducked]

Sorry to hear Pom is so poorly. Hope she picks up quickly.


Certainly think that is is worth at least getting a FEC done if not pre-emptively worming. I know she was only on the ground for a short while and it was 6 months ago but possibly contributing even if not the primary source of illness. If she was carrying a low worm burden and is now under stress it may have allowed it to get out of control.


Happy to give you a couple of doses of eprinex multi. Licenced for goats and is a pour on but wickedly expensive for just a couple of doses and even with my 10 don't think I will finish the bottle before it expires!


Give me a bell if you want some. Will be over your way on Tuesday.

[Beeducked]

Just noticed this is 10 days ago! Hope she is getting better.

[Lesley Silvester]

Thanks, Kate. She looks a lot happier in herself but is still very thin and her coat is very dull. Might be worth worming her just in case. I've been trying to get some poo for a FEC but they never do it when I'm with them so I don't know whose any of it is. I'm around Tuesday if you are in Telford, and I'd like to take you up on the offer of eprinex. Thanks. It would be good to get a second opinion as well.

[Beeducked]

Glad she is feeling a bit better.


Will bring a couple of doses of eprinex so you can do both of them.

[Lesley Silvester]

Will bring a couple of doses of eprinex so you can do both of them.

Thanks, Kate. See you tomorrow.

You could do a pooled sample if you're confident you've got some from both of them... bag piles separately and then put them in to your vet for checking...  I think the pooling normally covers up to 10 goats so if you can get several samples you should be confident that you've got some from each of them.

As for being shaggy coated - it's that time of year with the moult.  A good bath on a nice day may loosen some of the scurfy detritus from the winter and freshen her up.  You could also look at maybe giving her some of the horse build up mashes to put a bit of extra weight on.  Really hoping she picks up for you through the next couple of weeks so you can enjoy the summer together!

Thanks SD. A pooled sample sounds like a good idea. Never having done it before, I thought it would need to be two separate lots[size=78%].[/size]


I've given her a good brushing and not a lot came out. My other goat has got rid of her winter coat and is looking quite sleek. She's having sugar beet in with her coarse mix. I could have a look at the horse build up mash to have as well.

[Anke]

Tbh, at her age I wouldn't introduce brand-new feeds to her, and also not bathe her if she hasn't been done in a while - the stress it can cause them is just not worth it. A good brush is probably more appreciated, some greenery, bananas or other things she gets as a treat.