[macgro7]

I was reading recently how people manage their flocks of sheep in my native Poland.
First they spend more than six months a year locked in the sheds. Then around 20th of April they are transported to the mountains. As most Farmers in Poland are rather smallholders, they (sheep owners) combine their small flocks and give them in care of the shepherds for the summer. One shepherd is responsible for around 100 sheep. They milk them by hand 3 times a day initially and then twice in August and September. From milk they make fantastic smoked cheese. Shepherds take the flock to mountain forests and graze them in the meadows. They always walk with several guardian dogs (Tatra sheepdogs) and make a lot of noise around the forest edge as they are wolves and bears in the area! Sheep are penned up for the night every single evening. Imagine if you had to do that in Wales Or anywhere else in the UK!

My question is could you use combination of permanent and electric fences + dogs + hedgrows (unknown in poland) to manage sheep with less labour and not feeding wolves?

I was looking at farms for sale in that area beautiful climate. 500mm of rain a year (less than English midlands). Warm summers with low air humidity (I.e. much less foot problems and flystrike). Average temperature in winter is -5 (mountains after all). Climate there is so nice that you can grown Apples, pears and even peaches at least to 450m above sea level.

[Steph Hen]

Interesting! So different to here.

[macgro7]

Another interesting fact is by far the most popular breed in Poland is... merino! Except for the mountains where you mostly have polish mountain sheep.

[Fleecewife]

Thank you macgro7 for telling us about that tradition.  I wish we knew so much more about how things are done in different countries, different climates, different economic situations, various degrees of mountain-ness or plains, salt flats, and so on.  I think when it's something which is always done in your country you just tend to take it for granted and not tell anyone else about it.


Various countries have the tradition of transhumance, although in places such as the Pyrenees I believe they transport the sheep to the high pastures, or at least to the lower slopes, by lorry nowadays as the old drove roads are gone.  It would be such a shame if customs such as these were lost.  Imagine cheese made from milk produced in sunny summer Alpine pastures  .


We used to have a sheep guardian dog cross - Anatolian Karabash - so perhaps similar to your Tatra, and I have seen the French version working in the Auvergne.  I always wondered how a single dog could protect a flock from a whole pack of wolves, so good to know for transhumance they use several.


In fact in Britain there are some 'close shepherded' flocks which are taken back to in-bye land at night, for example Hebrideans in Ashdown Forest.

[Marches Farmer]

In fact in Britain there are some 'close shepherded' flocks which are taken back to in-bye land at night, for example Hebrideans in Ashdown Forest.

It's why the Down sheep are so docile.  The original Southdown flocks were walked to the Downs (which are, confusingly, actually hills) to graze the wild flowers and short grasses and walked back to in-bye land at night, transferring the fertility of the high ground to the arable fields and good grazing land lower down.  They had a shepherd with them all the time.

[Fleecewife]

When my grandmother was a girl, so in the 1890s, she and her sisters had to walk their cows along the verges before and after school, as slowly as possible, to get every last bit of grazing.  They didn't enjoy it because they wanted to be doing something much more interesting.  Girls eh 

[macgro7]

My great grandmother said she had to walk to school passing a flock of geese that were grazing on the road verge and she was really scared of the ganders. That was 1920s.

Up to 1980s there were 5 million sheep in Poland! Now there are only 200 thousand! In 1990s industry collapsed overnight and nearly disappeared! Even now nearly all lambs are exported (mainly to Italy), as NO ONE eats lamb or mutton in Poland ?
And that means ALL native Polish breeds of sheep are rare. Goats are even rarer as in 1970s polish communist government made goats a non-agricultural animal. And that meant no market, no government protection or breeding programs or herdbook for any goats...
Such a shame as there are 3 beautiful goat breeds from Poland which are only now being rediscovered living in remote farms saved by grannies.
I particularly love Carpathian goat which is pure white, quite small (probably around the size of golden guernsey), and often with a fringe!

[EP90]

My question is could you use combination of permanent and electric fences + dogs + hedgrows (unknown in poland) to manage sheep with less labour and not feeding wolves?

I wonder if Llamas would deter wolves?

[Marches Farmer]

I very much doubt it.  Wolves are a pack predator and llamas a prey animal.  The only natural predator of a wolf is man. 

[macgro7]

I've heard of instances of llamas Bing eaten by wolves themselves. Even cattle!
How dogs work is not by voting wolves but barking and scaring them away for the most part

[Fleecewife]

My great grandmother said she had to walk to school passing a flock of geese that were grazing on the road verge and she was really scared of the ganders. That was 1920s.

Up to 1980s there were 5 million sheep in Poland! Now there are only 200 thousand! In 1990s industry collapsed overnight and nearly disappeared! Even now nearly all lambs are exported (mainly to Italy), as NO ONE eats lamb or mutton in Poland ?
And that means ALL native Polish breeds of sheep are rare. Goats are even rarer as in 1970s polish communist government made goats a non-agricultural animal. And that meant no market, no government protection or breeding programs or herdbook for any goats...
Such a shame as there are 3 beautiful goat breeds from Poland which are only now being rediscovered living in remote farms saved by grannies.
I particularly love Carpathian goat which is pure white, quite small (probably around the size of golden guernsey), and often with a fringe!

Found this pic of Carpathian goats   http://bib.ge/goat/open.php?id=924  Yes, cute fringe 


Isn't it weird that no-one eats sheep in Poland.  I wonder why not.  They don't seem to eat much sheep in the US either.  Wouldn't it be so much better for the World's ecosystems and the rain forests if they ate grassgrown sheep rather than cattle.

[macgro7]

I really wonder why...
Poland is also the biggest producer of geese in Europe (over 90%!) Yet NO ONE EATS GEESE IN POLAND!!! 100% is exported to Germany for Christmas. Even beef. There are over 6mln cows in Poland but only 15 thousand of them are beef breeds. All the rest are dairy cows and veal. Again majority of their meat is exported. Same with rabbits - lots of farms but all goes to Italy!
As for cattle being bad for the rainforests - it's how you manage them. Both cows and sheep can be managed badly, damaging soil and environment or they can build soil if they are managed well. Check out Joel Salatin on YouTube.

Another species of livestock I have never heard of in Poland - in fact I had no idea they even loved in Europe- is water buffalo! They live in romania Italy bulgaria and even just over the border in Ukraine since the time of crusaders! There is even a autochtonous breed of Carpathian water buffalo. I wonder why there weren't any ever in Poland? Or maybe they we're? There's mentions of camels over a thousand years ago traded by Arab merchants.

[Fleecewife]

Sorry, I was referring to the American way of raising beef where huge tracts of virgin rainforest are cleared, grazed by cattle to fuel the US demand for large quantities of beef, then abandoned treeless and left to erosion.


So do the Polish eat pork?  I know there are some wonderful dried meat chorizo type sausages from Poland.  Is there a generally lower per capita consumption of meat in Poland than, say, in Britain?

[Buttermilk]

Talking to the Polish workers at the farm down the road.  When I mentioned horses they asked if I raised them for meat.  They would have bought a lamb off me to home kill but maybe they have developed a taste for lamb by living over here?  They said you only kept as many cows as you had acres of land in Poland as the farms had to provide all feed, nothing bought in.  They are resourceful people, the ones I have met.

[macgro7]

I was looking at meat consumption statistics and only 2% of meat eaten on Poland is beef. For uk it's nearly 30%.
They only eat poultry (chicken and a lot more turkey than the British) and pork. A lot of it is eaten as hams, sausages etc. Not dried but smoked. No one eats horses  lol but I know a lot of old horses were exported to Italy to make salami...