NFU Mutual Smallholding Insurance

Author Topic: Fallen Barn - Advice needed  (Read 2300 times)

him and her

  • Joined Aug 2017
Fallen Barn - Advice needed
« on: September 03, 2017, 07:49:31 pm »
On part of our land we have a collapsed concrete barn hid within a small wooded grove. The barn has been on the floor for more than twenty years now. It's a decent size, around 60ft x 30ft and would make a useful addition for a start up business that we have just got up and running.
Would re-building the barn legally require planning permission or could this be classed as repair?
Thanks in advance.
Voss Electric Fence

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
  • Qui? Moi?
    • ABERDON GUNDOGS for work and show
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Re: Fallen Barn - Advice needed
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2017, 11:16:28 pm »
Check your deeds to see if it's mentioned.  If it is then I imagine you could rebuild it, but you might need building warrants.  If not, then it may not have had planning consent anyway, so yes you'd need planning formalities.
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

landroverroy

  • Joined Oct 2010
Re: Fallen Barn - Advice needed
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2017, 10:32:04 am »
This is only my opinion, but I see no reason why you should have to ask anyone's permission to "repair" your own barn on your own land. You say it is hidden in a wooded grove, so I'm assuming it's not in the public view anyway.
When you say it's collapsed, is there any part of it still standing? If so take some photos of where it looks its best and at its most usable and keep these, just in case the council come snooping round, to prove that you are actually repairing and not rebuilding.


Having said that, I would just get on with it. But whatever you do - do not ask the planners their opinion! You must have read on here the numerous accounts of the hoops you may have to jump through just so they can justify their jobs.


And also, do not remove the ruins and then apply for planning as by taking a building away you have then deleted any rights you might have to put up a replacement one on the site, even if the old structure  is clearly shown on your deeds. 

As I said - I would just get on with it!   
Rules are made:
  for the guidance of wise men
  and the obedience of fools.

him and her

  • Joined Aug 2017
Re: Fallen Barn - Advice needed
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2017, 01:27:43 pm »
Thanks everyone. Some very good advice.
My thoughts were to just crack on and get it back up. I'm always anxious even to contact the PO for informal advice, worried about showing my hand.
Thanks again everyone. Great advice.

PK

  • Joined Mar 2015
  • West Suffolk
    • Notes from a Suffolk Smallholding
Re: Fallen Barn - Advice needed
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2017, 02:52:17 pm »
I was in a similar position and went ahead and rebuilt. My estimate was that it had been there for at least 40 years. As regards evidence of its pre-existence I noted that the barn is included on large scale Ordnance Survey maps that included my property.

Old Shep

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • North Yorkshire
Re: Fallen Barn - Advice needed
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2017, 03:33:26 pm »
Make sure you do not go outside the current barn dimensions, and have evidence that you haven't.
Helen - (used to be just Shep).  Gordon Setters, Border Collies and chief lambing assistant to BigBennyShep.

stufe35

  • Joined Jan 2013
Re: Fallen Barn - Advice needed
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2017, 03:39:33 pm »
My understanding of planning laws  is that you are actually supposed to have planning permission to rebuild any collapsed structures. (others above have put what they would/might do, or have done and got away with or what they imagine might be the case- this not necessarily good advice as you seem to think- you are confusing it with 'it is what you want to hear.')

If you are going to take a risk and rebuild without it, you need to understand the risk you are taking.  Are neighbours likely to object to your actions and report you ?  What can be seen on google earth ?

Don't ask a planning officer they will tell you whats best for them/ the planning authority. Ask a planning consultant for advice they will be working for you and will advise you on how best to  achieve your goals.

Alternatively there are websites/forums like this but that specialise in planning.  'Gardenlaw'  is one- I am sure there are others too.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 03:50:09 pm by stufe35 »

landroverroy

  • Joined Oct 2010
Re: Fallen Barn - Advice needed
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2017, 04:21:30 pm »
My understanding of planning laws  is that you are actually supposed to have planning permission to rebuild any collapsed structures. (others above have put what they would/might do, or have done and got away with or what they imagine might be the case- this not necessarily good advice as you seem to think- you are confusing it with 'it is what you want to hear.')

If you are going to take a risk and rebuild without it, you need to understand the risk you are taking.  Are neighbours likely to object to your actions and report you ?  What can be seen on google earth ?

Alternatively there are websites/forums like this but that specialise in planning.  'Gardenlaw'  is one- I am sure there are others too.


But what exactly do you see as the "risks" stufe35? I have talked in my post about repairing, not rebuilding. The former is perfectly legal and does not require planning. So if "him and her" retain sufficient proof that it is actually a repair, then it is very difficult for the council (should they find out) to prove otherwise.
Yes, the advice given was what they wanted to hear because that is the most logical solution! Sometimes it is more reasonable to follow the spirit of the law, rather than the letter of it. The planning rules are essentially to stop unauthorised building all over the place. Here there has been a building in situ for years. In the unlikely event that the planners find out and object to the work being done then worst case scenario is to apply for retrospective planning, which should be granted anyway because of the pre existing building. Much easier to take the chance of not needing planning in the first case!
Rules are made:
  for the guidance of wise men
  and the obedience of fools.

stufe35

  • Joined Jan 2013
Re: Fallen Barn - Advice needed
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2017, 05:11:31 pm »
Landroverroy...I am trying to answer their actual question and point out the risks should they decide not to follow the law.  It very much depends on where you live and what your neighbours are like if you can get away with ignoring the law.  You may as you say get away with retrospective planning,  - they may not.  Im just saying understand the risks before proceeding.  Don't proceed because a bunch of none proffessionals on this forum say they would. Remember google earth provides evidence.


Would re-building the barn legally require planning permission or could this be classed as repair?

I believe the actual answers to the posters questions are (based on my actual experience of the same thing happening to me ) - yes it would and no it wouldn't.  But i'm not a professional either-

None of us have seen how much this barn has collapsed.

Worst case scenario is not "having to apply for retrospective planning", worst case is "being told to take it down after applying for retrospective planning."

Is the rebuild for the new business a change of use ? .

« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 05:20:21 pm by stufe35 »

him and her

  • Joined Aug 2017
Re: Fallen Barn - Advice needed
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2017, 06:06:23 pm »
Hi, many thanks everyone, all very good points made.
I plan to speak with an architect that has a good relationship with the PO for his input on the whole plot including the possibility of a dwelling at some time in the future.
The existing barn position is well hid behind trees on all sides. There is a neighbour that knows the situation. I would have to make sure he was happy for me to put it back up
if I was to do it on the quiet.
Is the rebuild for the new business a change of use ? .
The new business wouldn't involve a change of use, it is an agricultural business.

Once again, many thanks. All input so far is very helpful

cloddopper

  • Joined Jun 2013
  • South Wales .Carmarthenshire. SA18
Re: Fallen Barn - Advice needed
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2017, 04:21:18 pm »
Thanks everyone. Some very good advice.
My thoughts were to just crack on and get it back up. I'm always anxious even to contact the PO for informal advice, worried about showing my hand.
Thanks again everyone. Great advice.

 Reading the thread just now for the first time ......it comes to mind to also go on line look for an ordnance survey map of the site .. see if the bulding is shown  if so whether it is designated barn or derelict building etc.

 Bear in mind that some local authorities are now buying information from the likes of Google . Who are using automated computer matching / comparisons to find alterations to a series of aerial photographs taken of a site or building that have been taken this last 10 years or so .
 The pictures will have been taken at regular intervals & will also be taken in the future at regular intervals too .
All Google do is send the subscriber a notification  that at point zxy  a construction alteration  of so many percentages has been made .
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 04:34:28 pm by cloddopper »
Strong belief , triggers the mind to find the way ... Dyslexia just makes it that bit more amusing & interesting

bazzais

  • Joined Jan 2010
    • Allt Y Coed Farm and Campsite
Re: Fallen Barn - Advice needed
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2017, 02:26:25 pm »
When you say its on the floor, what state is it in?

does satellite imagery show a roof - even if it is on the floor?

 

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