[kanisha]

But barbados blackbelly ( american version) do,  acknowlegement of outcrossing the caribbean version with mouflon;

http://knowledgebase.lookseek.com/Barbados-Blackbelly-Sheep.html

so it isn't just cocker spaniels that end up being unrecognisable ....

[in the hills]

Really interesting, Kanisha, thank you for the link.

[James1]

Some really interesting thoughts and ideas on the pictures I've put up. I agree that if they were of rams in the US I'd definitely say they were American Soay but they are rams in the UK. I also agree that just because a ram is registered with the RBST doesn't mean he is pure!. If Soay originated from wild Mouflon thousands of years ago there could always be the chance that Mouflon traits will appear from time to time in a flock of pure bred animals. If those with Mouflon traits like large main, white saddle patch and large wide horns were bred and selected for could it not be possible that eventually you would have soay that look very much like Mouflon but are also pure registered soay??
JR

[kanisha]

more likely to cross breed them.

[James1]

kanisha who's more likely to cross breed them?

[kanisha]

You had better ask the people who placed the adverts.

[Marches Farmer]

Any system of pedigree registration relies on the honesty of the breeder and their commitment to maintaining the unique characteristics of their chosen breed.

[James1]

Kanisha I did when I phoned about the adverts. The first one was registered the 2nd one wasn't. I'm going to visit the flock that produced the 2nd ram in the next few weeks so hopefully be able to see siblings and stock ewes in the flesh.
JR

[kanisha]

ask them for their explanation as to the differences. Sometimes as happens in every breed people buy stock unaware that they really aren't getting animals that are purebred ( even with papers) This is usually because of a lack of knowledge on the part of the purchaser and also a lack of full disclosure on the part of the seller.

Divergence from type - to answer a specific question it has already been discussed on this list with quotes from recognised geneticists that the soay pattern is not considered  the same as mouflon ( or wild)

There is difficulty in tracing the original ancestor of the european sheep directly but most models put the european mouflon as a direct ancestor ( although some consider it a feral domesticate) so ALL european sheep are thought to have mouflon in their ancestry which goes to show just about anything can be developed if so wanted BUT the time frame is over a LONG period many  many generations.  I think I'm correct in saying that few soay were on the mainland apart from in ornamental  parcs ( along side mouflon) before the begining of the 20th century. To obtain mouflon pattern ( as a recessive?? ) from soay pattern would require a great deal of chance and time to select those traits out from the breed.

[Marches Farmer]

Poultry are a good example of the longer a breed's been around and confined to a small area of the country then the more "fixed" it becomes.  Our Dorkings, for instance, are like peas in a pod, even though we regularly bring in a new cockerel, but the Laced Wyandottes show considerable differences in things like lacing pattern and comb shape, even though we've bred only from correct birds for five generations.  Our main sheep breed, the Southdown, was one of the first breeds to be selectively bred to improve wool and carcase, from around 1780, but some breeders are now bringing in French and NZ bloodlines of lineage which cannot be verified beyond a couple of generations and this has prompted the Society to initiate a survey with a view to perhaps splitting "Traditional" from "Improved" in much the same way as has happened to Aberdeen Angus and Hereford cattle.

[kanisha]

The issue with Soay and primitive breeds is that unlike many breeds they were developed and evolved to survive the living conditions and environment of the landscape in which they were developed.  As is so often the case bringing in blood to "improve" them and you end up losing the original traits that have stood the breed in good stead. the soay is probably for the UK as  a breed, unique in its age ( the earliest living example of domestic sheep breed) and also that the nucleus for the breed still lives in unmanaged isolated flocks. I am just wondering what people think they would be bringing to the breed by fresh blood...     

[James1]

Yeh a lot of good points. I know I've never seen any pictures of Soay from st Kilda with Mouflon markings!. I'll see if I can get some pictures of the ewes and lambs when I visit.

[kanisha]

did you get to see any of the sheep James?

[James1]

Hi kanisha, yes I did and the ewes look fairly regular mouflon soay ewes. I took some pictures of some yearling rams that I will try and post. The rams are all half brothers and some may even be full brothers to the unregistered ram I posted a picture of earlier. I would like to know if people would class them as light or dark Mouflon? You can clearly see that some are developing the white saddle patch and these ones in particular tend to have a lot more hair apposed to wool?? You can see the dark chest hair starting to appear.
JR

[James1]

Yearlings