[farmershort]

It's not a ''breed type'' that determines whether or not they can cope off grass/in a low input system--- it's down to the breeding policy and culling policy of the population they come from. For many years we kept Wiltshire Horns (just using them as an example) and through keeping 250 ewes and culling very harshly we ended up with animals that raised lambs on grass alone in a commercial situation but if we ever bought in stock from other softer regimes they would inevitably fade away pretty fast
I don't think that current foot rot advice advocates replacing trimming with AB use----trimming does not help foot rot heal , the best way to treat it in the long term is to cull all repeat offenders and their offspring . If I have 1% of my 1000 ewes lame at any one time I am very worried

Yes I did take the time to read your website (as linked on your TAS profile), so I can see what you're aiming for - and it does look very impressive. Your particular mix makes a lot of sense for commercial farmers, but we would miss the crop of wool, if nothing else. I take your point about culling out repeat offenders though - this does seem to be an increasingly popular tactic now.

Sadly the advice on foot rot is as I stated... well, they recommend the spray first, then a course of 3 jabs of T/M if that doesn't work. This is straight from the youthful vet. The advice on foot bathing seems a little less clear - some vets recommending it, and some questioning whether it is worth the effort. They do all, however, stick to this line about using AB instead of foot trimming & spray.

[twizzel]

It's not a ''breed type'' that determines whether or not they can cope off grass/in a low input system--- it's down to the breeding policy and culling policy of the population they come from. For many years we kept Wiltshire Horns (just using them as an example) and through keeping 250 ewes and culling very harshly we ended up with animals that raised lambs on grass alone in a commercial situation but if we ever bought in stock from other softer regimes they would inevitably fade away pretty fast
I don't think that current foot rot advice advocates replacing trimming with AB use----trimming does not help foot rot heal , the best way to treat it in the long term is to cull all repeat offenders and their offspring . If I have 1% of my 1000 ewes lame at any one time I am very worried

Yes I did take the time to read your website (as linked on your TAS profile), so I can see what you're aiming for - and it does look very impressive. Your particular mix makes a lot of sense for commercial farmers, but we would miss the crop of wool, if nothing else. I take your point about culling out repeat offenders though - this does seem to be an increasingly popular tactic now.

Sadly the advice on foot rot is as I stated... well, they recommend the spray first, then a course of 3 jabs of T/M if that doesn't work. This is straight from the youthful vet. The advice on foot bathing seems a little less clear - some vets recommending it, and some questioning whether it is worth the effort. They do all, however, stick to this line about using AB instead of foot trimming & spray.

We had a problem with scald in some ewes we bought this summer- 1 developed into early stage footrot but I think we caught it in time with antibiotics and blue spray. I agree with not trimming but spray and injectable antibiotics hit it from all angles, and isolate the offenders until better. I think she had 3 or 4 doses of alamycin 3 days apart with metacam too for the first week, sprayed twice a day, her foot cleared up nicely and touchwood has been ok since. We will have a look at it again once she's lambed.

[Marches Farmer]

I'm a founder member of the Herefordshire Meadows Group, with the goal of improving and introducing traditional hay meadows through the County. I've walked some meadows which had traditional hay strewing done about 12 years ago and been managed for biodiversity since and the number of different species of grasses and wild flowers was amazing.  Many of the plants were deep-rooted, such as sheep's sorrel and yarrow, which presumably drag up minerals from greater depth than the grasses.  Our meadows aren't as diverse but are noticeably green at the end of a dry summer compared to neighbours with modern Italian rye grass + white clover grazing.  The sheep don't much care for cocksfoot grass, for instance, but it grows back very quickly after haymaking and provides a bite when there's not much else about.

[farmershort]

That sounds like a healthy meadow MF! We keep being told that our little patch was always considered the best ground in the village.... which I think in Devon simply means the least wet!

There's certainly a few interesting things going on with the geography here, and at least 3 springs that we know of. When we walked the fields before viewing, we were staggered by the number and variety of butterflies in the fields.... We're very keen to allow this natural equilibrium to persist.

The soil testing samples are being taken as we speak. If anyone is interested in costs... it's just shy of £20 per field for a broad-spectrum analysis, and between £30 and £40 per field for one which shows selenium & cobalt. We're having all of our fields sampled for broad-spectrum, and then the largest (the main hay field) sampled for everything. The same company will be able to do fodder testing on our hay once we've made it this year. There's no point them testing 2016 hay really, as it was done in a major rush, the day after we moved in.

[waterbuffalofarmer]

Really enjoying reading through this we feed our sheep sugabeet, which I think is UK grown, and contains no soya whatsoever. For the buffalo we give them a  feed called berrystock, available from only a few select merchants in the UK, again no soya and I am sure all the ingrediants are UK grown, although would have to check with our supplier here in Ceredigion. They also do a sheep feed, a loose feed containing oats and barley (I think) sheep absoloutely love it! (albeit expensive except bought in a big bag).  These are our suppliers https://www.yell.com/biz/g-m-squires-aberystwyth-3141333/ But they could give you a list of other suppliers in England Hope this helps and all the best with whatever you decide.

[farmershort]

thanks WBF!

The soil testing person was very much into chemical fixes.... "I think you'll need lime, plus P&K if you're taking hay off". Well, it's true that the soil is acidic and that we take hay off, but the animals technically put the hay back with dung... rotating which field(s) are hay should give us a balance (in theory). The lime is a tricky one.

I'm pretty sure I can find a local-ish lime quarry / supplier, but I wonder what changing the PH radically might do to the natural wild flower balance. I wouldn't want the change in PH to mean that we then have to plough & re-seed with a more nuetral/alkaline PH friendly flower mix. Surely our natural, native equilibirum beats one with a slightly more grass-favourable PH. Oh well, we'll see wat the soil tests say, and what the fodder tests in the summer say.

[Coximus]

A few points on what you've said from someone who's been down this route;

1) You state the field was cut for hay for 50 odd years, that sets alarm bells ringing as that basically means that most of the trace and key mineral elements will have been removed from site - I started making my move to grass-only minimal fodder sheep keeping after realising this, that the feed value of alot of meadow hay is only marginally better than barley straw (which is dirt cheap) - and that the trace mineral deficiency issue was being made worse by me feeding the animals a deficient fodder crop.

2) Your keeping w.woodlands on lowland grass - they're not in the right place, I've had some myself (as drafts) and they lean towards lambing issues, over fat, the lambs are poor grading and fatty if bred pure on soft grass - they are adapted to the bleakest wetest and coldest parts of the high pennines, that said, they will be less likely to suffer mineral issues as they are adapted to scarcity - they ARE vulnerable to copper, as a result of this adaption. (I know of one man who brought 40 draft hill sheep, a mix of swale and w.woodlands and the death rate was 18 on fields with high copper due to pig slurry being spread - same fields harmless to Suffolk crosses).

3) Personally I would suggest getting the soil and grass tested - start point - and try and find a local source of manure and lime, get the ph as close to 6 as you can and get the PK at least 1.5 and abouve - the difference this makes to how well sheep "do" is amazing, from better fleece, immune systems, to growth rates.
Then look at sources of trace elements - simply feeding fodder beet out can help their - and the minerals pass through the sheep and enter the ground.

The key is also cost - trying to do it strictly local, and in an idealistic "traditional" manner will bankrupt you! Its better to look sustainability as a long term thing - get your soil right at the beginning, get your sheep breed right for your soil, and long term you will need few if any inputs.

Me, personally - Im farming 72ac lowland grass in the ph range 4.8-6.9 (rented ground poorer than owned) and keep mostly Texel & Easycare x Hebridean ewes - as this cross combines thrift and low food quality and volume requirements of the hebridean, with a commercially viable meat carcase and fast growth rates. Similar could be done with your W.woolands - taking their feed efficiency, hardiness and combining that with a faster growing commercial beast, combined with growing the best grass you can.

[farmershort]

Thanks Coximus - lots of food for thought there...

I'm not sure I agree with the thing about keeping things local ect bankrupting us, I've always seen it in a very similar way to food shopping for humans. I don't shop in aldi/lidl/tesco etc. I shop in waitrose/ocado as they provide better traceability, or else local farm shops / butchers etc. This is certainly more expensive than shopping in cheaper supermarkets, but I don't believe that it's good for food to be as cheap as it is today. There's nothing wrong with being able to get more for your money per se, but it's the drop in quality, welfare, standards, and the big shifts in agriculture it promotes.

Similarly, lime from nearby in wiltshire might be more expensive than lime from poland (just a guess), but it's wrong that this situation exists. The production costs in the local area should be the production costs. This globalisation model leads to local businesses failing because they can't match international production costs... it's just bonkers.

Several people have mentioned the sugar beet thing now, so I think I need to try and find some better trace element and mineral data for it. I'll do that.

Regarding the breeding, yeah I take your point. We need to see what happens really. The woodland (I understand) were a blend in some degree of Lonk (massively hilly) and Merino (not hilly) sheep, so I didn't naturally equate them as the same as scotties or something that like. We're also at 800 ft here in devon, so whilst the grass is good and it keeps growing, we do have some altitude. of course 800 ft in yorkshire is not quite the same! When we kept them previously, we just crossed them with a texel tup. We found that this made a great meat lamb. We have used both a pedigree WW and a texel tup this year, so we will have a little variety in our lambs. I would like to keep the WW ewes pure if possible, as we're helping a rare breed, and adding a bit of geo-diversity to them.

Great to hear from someone else with experience of this style - so thanks!

Our well water is PH 5.79 btw, so I expect our soil to be similar. You're right of course about the hay cutting taking away nutrients. I think we'll have to find a good local source of cow muck to spread on some of the fields initially to make up for those years of stripping. At least once we reach a balance point, we should be able to become a little more of a 'closed-shop'.

[Marches Farmer]

Our farm used to be a small-scale intensive pig farm (65 breeding sows) which spread pig slurry regularly.  An advisor from the Farmers' Wildlife Advisory Group told us that favoured fast early growth of the grasses (albeit native types) and once slurry spraying stopped the wild flowers would increase as they'd have a better chance of growing away and setting seed before the grasses swamped them.  This has proved to be the case.  We had the trees thinned in a small wood a few years ago, which let in a lot more sunlight, and the next year bluebells and primroses grew where none had been seen for years, the seed was probably just lying dormant waiting for the right conditions to germinate.

We take hay from the best meadow every other year and in between take it from a neighbour's field in exchange for a butchered pig.

[farmershort]

Our farm used to be a small-scale intensive pig farm (65 breeding sows) which spread pig slurry regularly.  An advisor from the Farmers' Wildlife Advisory Group told us that favoured fast early growth of the grasses (albeit native types) and once slurry spraying stopped the wild flowers would increase as they'd have a better chance of growing away and setting seed before the grasses swamped them.  This has proved to be the case.  We had the trees thinned in a small wood a few years ago, which let in a lot more sunlight, and the next year bluebells and primroses grew where none had been seen for years, the seed was probably just lying dormant waiting for the right conditions to germinate.

We take hay from the best meadow every other year and in between take it from a neighbour's field in exchange for a butchered pig.

That sounds like a decent system MF! Yes I am worried that whatever we do might upset the balance here, but I hold out hope that wildflower/grass mix which has lived for so long does carry nutrients in a similar way to a more grassy farmed lay. We won't really know until we get the results of fodder testing in the summer. If it turns out that the hay is a real issue, and needs some nutrients, then we'll just have to ensure that only certain areas of the farm are "fed".

[Anke]

One of the things to look out for with licks is that many now contain fish oils.... just plain wrong IMO...

[waterbuffalofarmer]

One of the things to look out for with licks is that many now contain fish oils.... just plain wrong IMO...

Why is it wrong? The fish oils give the animals essential omega's throughout the winter, which their body is lacking in, and it helps the unborn lambs too in getting essential nutrients. On another note entirely who would like to read this fascinating article about sheep, pre lambing, tupping and after lambing. Full of stats and data
Enjoy!

[Anke]

One of the things to look out for with licks is that many now contain fish oils.... just plain wrong IMO...

Why is it wrong? The fish oils give the animals essential omega's throughout the winter, which their body is lacking in, and it helps the unborn lambs too in getting essential nutrients. On another note entirely who would like to read this fascinating article about sheep, pre lambing, tupping and after lambing. Full of stats and data
Enjoy!

Ruminant are herbivores. The do not eat animal products - least of all fish oil - a cheap by-product of salmon farming. I am old enough to remember where feeding animal by-product to cows got the beef industry in the past...

There are licks out there that do not have fish oil in them if you feel they need supplementing.

[pharnorth]

Interesting thread and lots to ponder on

I can understand the ideological objection to fish oil for sheep, indeed I have so far avoided it. But not sure that there is a biological objection, the beef industry issue arose from wholesale use of animal products including brain tissue, if fish oil is oil only and not CNS should be ok. One would hope the risk assessment has been done!

On muck spreading, do you spread on the meadow and just let is sink in?  Here the farmers are all arable so tend to plough it in and have looked bemused when I suggest spreading it on our permanent pasture.

[Black Sheep]

The other element to throw into the mix is that local is not necessarily more sustainable. Which is the "best" option for any given product need (be that lime, hay, mineral/energy buckets, feeds etc) will be a complex balancing of multiple factors. Which one of the options looks best will often be affected by how widely or narrowly the implications are considered - which in turn often boils down to the ones we can identify or consider personally important.