Author Topic: Johnes disease (Read 3170 times)

mojocafa · « **on:** January 26, 2016, 06:50:39 am »

I have 9 female pigmy goats
4 wethers
1 completely unrelated billy

The 4 wethers and 4 females are related by having the same dad.

All my goats present as being healthy, all vaccines up to date. They are all about 4 years old.

18 months ago I sold 2 kids and their mum altogether. 8 months later the mum died, she went blind and vet thought that she had caught listeriosis. Now one of the kids (now almost 2years) is very poorly, lost a lot of weight. They have done poo samples and vet is suspecting johnes disease.
The mum also had the same dad as the 8 already mentioned.

What should I do o with respects to my own flock and I sold the goats in good faith that they were healthy so do I compensate the new owner.

I have googled johnes and I believe it's inherited, what's anyone's experience?

Any advise appreciated

Buttermilk · « **Reply #1 on:** January 26, 2016, 08:14:01 am »

The sold goats could have picked up johnes from anywhere and were healthy when sold. You could get yours tested for your own peace of mind for the future. From memory I think that kids pick it up from the mothers udder and the environment, so have to be removed before the mother can feed them and before the navel can pick traces of it up. It is a bacteria so not hereditary but easily passed onto the offspring.

Anke · « **Reply #2 on:** January 26, 2016, 08:44:06 am »

There isn't a 100% sure test for Johnes in goats. Going blind is not a symptom of Johne's, but definitely of listeriosis and/or CCN. Johne's is not inherited as such, but can be transmitted by bodily fluids, such as colostrum and semen.

There are a number of other diseases that cause slow emaciation etc of adults, although Johne's is the one mostly blamed. Blindness and chronic weight losss is also listed as one of the signs of CAE, as is scrapie, cobalt deficiency...

If your goats would have Johne's you probably would have seen others in your herd coming down with it. Also John Matthews book reckons that animals older than 9 months are rarely infected, and that cross-infection in a herd between older animals is rare too.

Unless you gave an assurance that your goats were certified Johne's -free it is unlikely that you could be held responsible. You sold your animals in god faith, and they were ok for over half a year, so no way to prove now that they were ill when sold.

BTW - these goats weren't pregnant? Just pregnancy toxaemia is possible too, especially if they were (too) well fed by their new owner...

If you have got the chance to speak to a cattle vet, they will have seen a lot more of Johne's about.

verdifish · « **Reply #3 on:** January 26, 2016, 09:06:49 am »

Apart from anything else almost 2 years is so long in a goats life no one could or should expect you to either feel guilty or reimburse anyone.

fiestyredhead331 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 26, 2016, 01:00:44 pm »

been there, done that, got the vaccine!

Our very first goat Daisy was 3 years old when we got her, she kidded twice with us but after her last kidding she lost weight/condition fairly rapidly despite a healthy appetite so we had the herd tested (we were up to about 12 goats by that point!) and she came back positive as did one other who opted not to put into kid last year to see how she fared. I'll never forget spending most of the day following goats around with poo sample containers waiting for each one to provide us with a sample

After much researching and discussions with our vet we got the vaccine and did the whole herd. It didn't help Daisy but it did mean that any of the others who may have the dormant disease wouldn't shed it and hopefully prevent further cases. It does mean that we can't test for it again as the vaccine would show up as a positive result.
It's a heart-rending messy business and Daisy passed away in the summer and we suspect that she had it since she was young but I hadn't even heard of the disease at the time and she was a big beautiful Saanen and showed no outward signs for years. I wouldn't expect any reimbursement from her previous owners as they were probably just as unaware as I was.
Good luck with your results and hope its not as bad as you think

goosepimple · « **Reply #5 on:** January 26, 2016, 05:50:27 pm »

It's more likely in cattle than in sheep or goats and if you go for tests and it's positive I'd get a second opinion even if your vet's reputable (or the lab they use). It's very hard to test for seemingly. Livestock can catch it from a rabbit in their field which has it or any wild animal.

I think it is probably more common than we know and it's because we tend to keep goats for longer, not putting them in the food chain as with cattle and sheep, that it comes out eventually. We thought our sheep had it once a few years back, due to a couple of them going skinny after lambing and subsequently dying, but all our livestock are good and healthy (and we keep some flimsy rare breeds). Some female livestock just aren't up to feeding twins etc, it takes a lot out of them - as with humans.

It's unlikely you have it, I'd really get a second opinion from a different lab (important) if a test comes back positive.

mojocafa · « **Reply #6 on:** January 28, 2016, 01:37:03 pm »

Thanks folks for replies,

fsmnutter · « **Reply #7 on:** January 28, 2016, 01:42:12 pm »

Quote from: goosepimple on January 26, 2016, 05:50:27 pm

It's more likely in cattle than in sheep or goats and if you go for tests and it's positive I'd get a second opinion even if your vet's reputable (or the lab they use). It's very hard to test for seemingly. Livestock can catch it from a rabbit in their field which has it or any wild animal.

I think it is probably more common than we know and it's because we tend to keep goats for longer, not putting them in the food chain as with cattle and sheep, that it comes out eventually. We thought our sheep had it once a few years back, due to a couple of them going skinny after lambing and subsequently dying, but all our livestock are good and healthy (and we keep some flimsy rare breeds). Some female livestock just aren't up to feeding twins etc, it takes a lot out of them - as with humans.

It's unlikely you have it, I'd really get a second opinion from a different lab (important) if a test comes back positive.

"I think it's more common than we know", or "its unlikely you have it" sounds very contradictory!!!

As it can be spread through milk and faeces from infected goats, and usually contracted at a young age, if their goats are positive, it may have come from your farm. It is slow to develop, so most accurate tests (still nowhere near 100%, with false positives and negatives common) are in older animals as more likely for the disease to have developed.

If there is positive tests in animals you have had on your farm, I would be considering vaccination. Talk to your vet and see if they agree.

fiestyredhead331 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 28, 2016, 05:41:41 pm »

totally agree with fsmnutter, if its positive..vaccinate!

I discussed this very thing on another topic after I lost Daisy and the idea was put forward that people close by could share a bottle ( the Daisy Chain we called it ). I know its pricey, about £100 for a tiny bottle (Gudair) that does about 30 doses and it has a short shelf life once open but I was more than willing to take the financial hit for the sake of my herd.

Saying all that, maybe it's something entirely different and you won't need to go down that route at all

goosepimple · « **Reply #9 on:** January 29, 2016, 08:02:25 am »

Thanks yes I was looking contradictory there! I meant it's probably more common in cattle and sheep - far fewer people keep goats so it is less likely to spread.

But before I went culling all my stock, I'd get a second indi opinion.

Buttermilk · « **Reply #10 on:** January 29, 2016, 11:20:55 am »

I think the reason it is less common in goats is due to the small herd size that most people have. When talking about large commercial scale farming of them my old boss used to state that anyone who claimed not to have it was either naive, ignorant or a liar. He saw a lot of commercial herds throughout the country.