[Dans]

Well, the fences are getting there and I'm thinking about buying our first sheep. 

I've been offered some CMM wethers that I like the look of but the breeder doesn't seem to have much experience with them and when I asked about vaccination and worming history they said that they are unvaccinated and have been wormed and fluked a few times (they are April 2015 wethers).

I had assumed that they would have had some vaccinations. Do not all people vaccinate? Would you buy unvaccinated stock?

Dans

[Old Shep]

No - I'd leave them where they are.

[Anke]

I wouldn't get them. They should have had their initial course of Heptavac (or equivalent). If the owner doesn't know about that, I would leave alone.

[landroverroy]

Not everyone vaccinates and it doesn't mean their sheep are riddled with disease.
They have been wormed and fluked, so the owner is not exactly clueless.

I personally would have no problem in buying them if you like the look of them. As they are wethers I imagine you're not planning to keep them too long anyway. 

[Womble]

To be devil's advocate then, why do you both say that?

If Dans were to buy them and give them an initial dose plus a follow-up booster, wouldn't they end up being just the same as if they had been treated as lambs?

Anyway Dans, why wethers? I take it this is for fattening up over the winter, for slaughter in the spring?

[SallyintNorth]

a recent UK survey revealed that almost 20 per cent of sheep farmers did not vaccinate their sheep on a regular basis

whole article

I would agree that live animals that are not vaccinated should be fine.  Vaccinate on arrival and booster 4-6 weeks later.

[Hevxxx99]

What do organic shepherds do?

[Fleecewife]

We don't vaccinate with heptavac, not for any mistaken principles but because we have never had signs of clostridial diseases here.  If they reared their ugly heads then of course we would vaccinate the whole flock.  Heptavac isn't the kindest of injections, and back in the early days before we had the confidence not to vaccinate, our sheep frequently had painful abscesses at the injection site, in spite of using a fresh sterile needle on each sheep.
However, Dans if your ground has ever had sheep on in living memory, or you only have mesh fences between your fields and your neighbours, then vaccinate.

For the people you are buying from, take a careful look at their place and their animals, not just the sheep.  Make your own judgement as to their knowledge and their animal health status.  If you are happy with that, then buy the wethers.  If not then go elsewhere.  If you introduce disease onto clean land, then it can become a long term problem.
I would be slightly worried as to why the owner has had to worm and fluke 'several times', which could be a sign of dirty ground.
You are being sensible not to jump in with both feet when you are clearly not totally sure if these sheep are in prime condition.  If you choose not to buy them, then there are millions of others to chose from - get the best 

[nimbusllama]

When buying in new stock from any source, I tend to start them on the Heptavac P programme from scratch, unless I am totally confident that they are up to date and have had the initial vaccinations at the correct times.  Even then I wouldn't do it until the period just before lambing.  If I bought wethers for the freezer then I probably wouldn't do it at all unless I was doing the breeding stock.

[Anke]

I am always amazed by the number of people who say "we don't need to vaccinate because we never had a problem.." Isn't the whole ethos of vaccination prevention rather than cure? So would you not vaccinate your children against measles for example because you never had it?

Having had goats dying of enterotoxaemia (despite vaccination cover, but goats are not very good at developing immunity to clostridial vaccines) I do not wish that horrible painful death on any other animal, and even if the cover is not 100% - vaccination will help!

[Marches Farmer]

I agree with Anke.  Vaccination is insurance - you hope most fervently you'll never need to make a claim but ....

[Big Light]

Plenty of answers but reality is if they are well and healthy then you can bring them into whatever vaccination and worming fluking routine you like  - some people worm fluke as a seasonal thing whether they have tested or not - doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them - also reality is if they are wethers i assume you are going to be potentially eating them ( maybe not?) at some point this year so therefore although they mighty need a worm /fluke - do they need vaccination at x pounds against whatever the cost of the sheep when they only have to live for 6 months to a year?

[clydesdaleclopper]

I am always amazed by the number of people who say "we don't need to vaccinate because we never had a problem.." Isn't the whole ethos of vaccination prevention rather than cure? So would you not vaccinate your children against measles for example because you never had it?

Actually I was very selective with the vaccinations that my children had. Vaccination is not without its problems, some are ineffective (as you have found with your goats) some can cause side effects because of the use of mercury in the vaccine. Everyone has to make an informed decision based on their circumstances and there are many who do not vaccinate at all.


My goats are vaccinated with Lambivac but my sheep are not vaccinated.

[Womble]

So would you not vaccinate your children against measles for example because you never had it?

If I lived on an isolated island in the Hebrides, and my kids never had contact with any potential carriers then no, I wouldn't vaccinate them.  That's pretty much the same as Fleecewife's flock, isn't it?

So really the debate as to whether to buy the sheep or not, really comes down to "why didn't you vaccinate?". If it was due to a risk based approach then fine. If it was down to ignorance or penny pinching by the seller then I'd walk away with a clear conscience.

[Anke]

Enterotoxaemia (pulpey kidney) is not caused by the sudden ingestion of clostridial bacteria present in ANY soil - the sheep/goats/cattle have these already in their gut. A sudden stress (such as change in weather, moving to a new place/lambing/kidding/eating lots of chicken feed etc) can cause the natural balance to tilt with the result that these bacteria go into overdrive. It is not the bacteria that kill, but the toxin they produce. There is no anti-toxin available in the UK. Once they go into that toxic shock, they will die. And it is a horrible death, the screaming of the goat is just heartbreaking - the quickest way is to get PTS by the vet. Sheep just die quietly...

And tetanus is around too everywhere, as humans we just don't get it because the vast majority of people get immunised in this country.

But if you ever sell livestock (or let your children move into the wider world) I would have thought that in order to give them best preparation (and keep your reputation) vaccination is important. Having done quite a lot of risk assessments in a previous life it just isn't worth it.

So buying sheep that you know have not been vaccinated - why? Bringing them onto ground where you don't know what has been going on before? This winter when pneumonia is rife?