[cairnhill]

Twin boys finally arrived early this morning to my Hebridean ewe Annie.   That is a total of 3 boys from 2 ewes and one ewe still to lamb.  The first boy born over two weeks ago is still intact but I don't know if I should castrate these twin boys.   Hebrideans are not for meat and I wonder wether to keep also intact which would mean I would end up with 5 rams (including last years ram lamb and of course Errol who is the Daddy of them all).  Wonder if I castrated them what would be the likelihood of homing them together as handsome lawnmowers for a smallholding.   Good thing about Hebs is they are small, very hardy and require minimal care.  Would welcome arguments from both sides.

[morri2]

Hello Cairnhill.  I've got the same problem, or at least have had the past two years, when most of my lambs were rams, and I try not to sell any of my stock for meat but for breeding.  This gave me the same dilemma as you.  What was I to do with all these boys?  So far the answer is (and some of them are now two years old)....nothing!  I did not castrate any of them, instead I have fed them plenty, looked after them well and will be taking the three two year olds to market this summer as breeding stock - I've never done this before, so I'll have to see how it goes.  The three I'm taking have turned out to be good looking tups so if I'd castrated them, I'd be limited to selling them as male lawnmowers, which is not at attractive option and most people would rather have ewes for this purpose (heaven knows why).  That said, there are no guaranteed buyers so at this stage, its very much experimental and it will still leave six ram lambs from last year which I hope to do the same with as the three above.  It costs a lot in feed to do this, but it may bring a better price - we'll see.

[cairnhill]

Cheers for the reply Morri2    Did you keep all your boys together?  And if so at what age did u seperate from the ewes.  Good luck with the sale and let me know how you get on. 

[egglady]

we've had 3 ram lambs so far this year so i'm interested to get everyone's views on this - especially the taking to market advice and experience.

[morri2]

Hello again.  I separated the boys from the girls at weaning time.  I kept all rams of all ages together for some months until I had to separate the ram lambs from the older rams this winter as they were missing out on feed 'cos the older ones eat faster.  I'll post a report on this site when I've taken my rams to market, but I don't think it will be until about July/Sept.  I would be interested to hear if anyone else out there has sold any unregistered/non pedigree tups of whatever breed at market and how much to expect to get for them - mine, incidently are Polled Dorset.

[Fergie]

Hello Cairnhill,

I also keep Hebrideans, and although I've castrated them in the past, last year I left all the males intact.  They needed separated at about four months, but have generally lived happily together in the "boy's field".  One went early to the abattoir due to  somewhat frisky behavior (fence jumping) but the other seven have behaved well.  I intend to leave this year's intact as well, and although at least one of last year's tup lambs will be sold as a tup for breeding, the rest will go the abattoir as hogget when about eighteen months old.

I disagree that Hebrideans are not for meat - they are delicious, being low fat & full of flavour.  You just keep them a bit longer to mature.

If you can keep them separate from the ewe lambs, then keep them intact.

John

[woollyval]

There is a question of responsible breeding here! If you are going to breed sheep you must only do it if you are prepared to make some hard decisions! Hebrideans are superb meat, wool and lambskin sheep.....not just pets and keeping males whether castrated or not poses a lot of questions! IF you are going to breed for meat it does not matter one way or another so long as you can keep the ram lambs well away from ewes after about 4-5 months old. This can be very difficult and especially so if entire rams of more agile breeds are kept! Questions must be asked about their ultimate futures....you could end up with 20 odd rams or wethers if you keep breeding but will not eat them!
Wethers sold as grassmowers do not always have a happy life....often being given away if the family move and sometimes falling on hard times and ending up in rescue centres!
Selling rams that are not top class pedigree in the market is also not taking responsibility in my opinion!....I'm sorry but they will eventually, possibly sooner rather than later go back into the market or be passed on and on.....and probably end up in the cull rams!
I have bred pedigree and non pedigree livestock for 30 years and responsibility for what you breed, what happens to the animal, and the welfare concerns are or should be paramount! I believe that if you are not prepared to eat or sell for eating, therefore knowing the ultimate destination of your stock, you should not be breeding them in the first place!!!

[Castle Farm]

I breed Llyens and up till last year ringed the ram lambs. The guy I hire my tups off never does his and you can see the difference in size.
This year it will be tails only, as the tup lambs go off as soon as they are up to weight.

Watching the poor little buggers squerming on the ground after banding last year made my eyes water.

[morri2]

WoollyShepherd.  You have really struck a nerve here. Sheep, as can any other animal live quite happily, with proper care, without having to end up on someone's plate ! There are many, many (usually large) farmers who neglect there stock and many end up dead before they even get to a market or become a dinner - I've seen plenty of neglect on the part of farmers here, believe me - I couldn't even begin to list all the horrors I've witnessed over the last few years, purely down to lack of proper husbandary.  I am not a meat eater myself  but I do enjoy keeping sheep ; my parents came from smallholding backgrounds and branches of my family are efficient, caring farmers.   Whether I chose to keep/sell/breed, provided I do it properly and (your word here ) responsibly, and compared to many other 'farmers' around here, I certainly do, provides good quality stock for whoever might want to buy them.  If I chose to sell non pedigree rams at market - no one has to buy them, but if a smallholder who wants a ram of the breed I am selling why should he have to buy a pedigree?  I know plenty of people who don't have enough stock to justify that expense and in any event, it would not be necessary for a small number of ewes.  My stock is well cared for and would make a good addition to a small flock. I would never attempt to sell anything sub-standard, unlike many other farmers who use markets to get rid of their unwanted or problem animals.   If they do not sell, the onus is on me to look after them and provide them with a home - which I am quite prepared to do. If someone buys them, great!  If they don't, no problem.  This year, I've been asked by a very responsible local farmer to sell him my ram lambs as stores - which I am quite prepared to do as I know the guy is a good stockman and he will eat them himself.    I am more than aware that my stock, once sold, end up in the food chain somewhere It would be incomprehensible not to acknowledge this (which as a Master's student I am not!).  At the end of the day my sheep have a better life than most - I am not one of the 'hard farmer' types who view livestock purely as food.  I enjoy keeping them, looking after them and doing my bit to provide good quality, well cared for stock - pedigree or not! My kids are learning to do the same. We are not all profit seeking farmers - Sometimes a little profit is nice, but there is a lot of pleasure to be gained in keeping animals too. Sorry to waffle on so much but there endeth the lesson for today............

[woollyval]

Don't worry about writing an epistle Mori You are totally right to point out that many farmers do not care for their stock as they should and you are obviously a 'thinking' veggie sheep keeper who is totally responsible!!! I chose to make a comment as I am often contacted by people wanting to find a good home for a ram/wether/old ewe who was a pet but was passed on.....they do not want to eat it/them nor do they want anyone else to....and here lies the problem, what am I to advise them to do??? My husband is a veggie so I am totally aware of all the salient points and contradictions!!! I also process wool for many lovely people with pet lawn mowers who treat their sheep like any other pet....keeping it for life! I just wanted to point out the folly of some who may indescriminately breed lambs without a thought as to the long term consequences.
I have kept up to 150 commercial and pedigree sheep in the past and presently keep Ouessant sheep, a small minature French breed. They can be kept as lawnmowers but are also exceedingly tasty! If I too was a veggie I would not breed them as I like to know the destination of all of my stock whether it be for kebabs in the cull ewes section at market (where my old commercial sheep would go) or as breeding stock or as lunch in the local pub. I only have the welfare and concern for the sheep at heart I assure you, not just knocking people who do not eat their sheep or make huge profits from them!

[Canadian Sheepfarmer]

I have a 4 year old wether that somehow stayed behind in the flock. My original plan was to put a bell on him, a bell wether, so that if I heard the bell ringing wildly I would know that something was amiss or that something was chasing the sheep.
I gave up on this as I thought it a little cruel: how would you like to be driven mad by a constant ringing every time you moved?!

He is very calm, knows where the water is, knows the fields and generally leads the other sheep, but the interesting thing to me is that he is about 200 lbs, way heavier and taller than the rams of equivalent age. Someone said that castration makes the bones grow longer? Not something I wish to try!
He is called Horse.

[kanisha]

my own view is that initially after castration it may knock them back a little in comparison to the same aged ram lamb but as they mature the castrates overtake the rams easily. I keep my castrates until  18 months and they are heavier and stockier than the rams of equivalent age.

[cairnhill]

Thank you to all who replied.  Quite an emotive issue it appears.  I am grateful for the knowledge and information as I am relatively new to keeping sheep.  In fact this was my first experience of lambing as I bought my ewes last year with lambs at foot.  I am not a vegetarian as may have been assumed and have raised pigs for the table and very tasty they were.  I keep my sheep because they are land managers and because I get joy from owning and caring for them.   They are pedigree and registered with HSS, whether that matters or not.  I did not realise there was a market for Hebridean meat as I live in an area where only commercial breeds are raised.  I hope to learn to spin so that I can use the wool for knitting and fleece for felting.  And yes I know it isn't the finest fibre either.  I am aware of the responsibility surrounding breeding and totally appreciate that some people need to make a living from selling their animals for meat.  I did read somewhere that castrated boys have a fleece quality similar to ewes so I may castrate the twin boys so they can stay in my flock as fleece providers.    Once again thanks for the replies. 

[Fergie]

Hi again,

as you say it can be an emotive subject, but having tried both I think it comes down to flock management preferences as much as anything.

I keep my sheep because they are land managers and because I get joy from owning and caring for them.   They are pedigree and registered with HSS, whether that matters or not.  I did not realise there was a market for Hebridean meat as I live in an area where only commercial breeds are raised. 

All my Hebs are HSS registered too, and I sell (or swap) those that I can for breeding purposes.  The others go for meat, which is excellent.  Family & friends tend to grab most of it, but a Google search will reveal that there is a widespread gourmet market as well.  Generally I find they are best in their second year, when they cannot be called lamb but hogget.  If intact males are sent to the abattoir before September there will be no trace of "male taint".  Otherwise wait until the following March.  This does not apply to wethers.

Good Luck,

John

[Blacksheep]

Hebredians are a breed that might have some demand for conservation grazing. The wethers have a different grazing pattern to breeding sheep, traditionally wethers would have been out on the hills/poor or rough grazing to finish as mutton, and Hebredian wethers are bought by some conservation organisations eg the National Trust. This means that they don't have to worry about lambing and wethers may be better suited to grazing public access land with dogs etc on it than breeding stock. So yes they can have a land management job potentially - whether or not those raised in a small tame flock would be suited to that purpose might be another matter though!