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Author Topic: Stable type doors - can't work this out  (Read 5592 times)

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • Wester Gladstone Hebridean Sheep
Stable type doors - can't work this out
« on: September 20, 2015, 03:27:46 pm »
We've had porches built onto our house, front and back.  We want to have stable type doors, which open inwards (wind's too strong to have doors opening outwards), so we can have air but not chickens and sheep coming in. 
So how do you make sure that horizontal wind and rain doesn't come in where the top and bottom meet?  Normally, there is a small wooden or metal sill type thing attached to the bottom of the top half of the door, which projects down to cover the gap.  This plus a seal of some kind is fine for a door which opens outwards, but with it arranged so the top opens inwards, obviously the sill would catch on the top of the bottom half and not let the top open when the bottom is kept closed.  So, you put the sill higher up, so it doesn't bump into the bottom half.  Fine, but this now exposes the join to horizontal rain, wind, sleet, snow etc.
So I suppose, after all that, my question is, what design of seal, or combination of seals, will prevent wet getting in enough to rot the top of the bottom half of the door?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 03:29:33 pm by Fleecewife »
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SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
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Re: Stable type doors - can't work this out
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2015, 04:28:00 pm »
I've had doors like this.  The meeting surfaces of two halves are both L shaped in profile, so that drafts don't come through.  (There's a name for this, sorry my woodworking knowledge is lacking.)  And on the upper half, immediately above the join (so doesn't catch when the upper half is opened inwards), is a bit of architrave, to divert rain out and away when the door is shut.

There's usually another bit of architrave, the same, on the bottom of the bottom door, to stop rain getting onto the very bottom of the door, too.
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Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • Wester Gladstone Hebridean Sheep
Re: Stable type doors - can't work this out
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2015, 04:53:27 pm »
That's the bit I've called a sill - don't know its proper name either.  The problem is that that doesn't cover the gap, it has to be above it to open, and the 'L' shaping of the meeting surfaces whilst it will help to stop drafts, won't protect the wood of the top edge of the bottom half from rain and moisture seeping in - or here, whistling in  :innocent:.  I'm sure you get that horizontal evil rain too.
So what I need is something which stops the rain getting into the join gap, but allows the door to separate into its two halves, and settle back into a functioning position protecting the outside once the door top is closed again.
My brain's going round in circles  :tired:   Not helped by the fact I don't understand a single word when I google 'seals' - they're alien beings to me.
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Ghdp

  • Joined Aug 2014
  • Conwy
Re: Stable type doors - can't work this out
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2015, 05:06:49 pm »
We have these just as SITN has described and the door is wind and water tight.

UPoneacre

  • Joined Nov 2013
  • Llanidloes, Powys
Re: Stable type doors - can't work this out
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2015, 07:15:01 pm »
The short answer is that an inward opening type is exceedingly difficult to make wind/water tight at the horizontal joint because the profile of the rebated rail joints is stepping down into the building, contrary to what it needs to prevent water/wind entry. The addition of a weatherboard (the bit you refer to as sill) to the upper door immediately above the joint helps but isn't foolproof - it needs to be supplemented by a neoprene weather seal strip (you're already ahead of me!) fitted into a groove routed into the underside of the bottom rail of the upper door so that it presses onto the top surface of the lower door when closed. Even these aren't foolproof but they will be more effective than none at all.

I'd suggest that you talk to both your builder/carpenter and possibly your local builders merchant who should be able to suggest a suitable product.


Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • Wester Gladstone Hebridean Sheep
Re: Stable type doors - can't work this out
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2015, 07:36:15 pm »
It's my builder/carpenter who's making them, and he has less of a clue than I do  :roflanim:

You've got the problem in one UPoneacre.  With the type of seal you suggest, would it settle back into position when the top is re-closed?  I have visions of it staying pointing backwards.  Would it work to fix a seal like that to the front of the top of the bottom half, pointing upwards, so it presses up under the weatherboard and is protected by it?   It's so difficult to explain in words  ::)
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SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
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Re: Stable type doors - can't work this out
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2015, 10:52:47 am »
Lateral suggestion...

If you were able to re-route any water which gets in to the joint back to the outside... For instance, holes drilled through the corner of the rebate which come out an inch further down on the outside, then the water wouldn't ever get to the base of the door to rot it.  Of course you'd have to find a way to waterproof the rebate and the channels...  :thinking:
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

UPoneacre

  • Joined Nov 2013
  • Llanidloes, Powys
Re: Stable type doors - can't work this out
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2015, 01:19:26 pm »
Not easy to answer briefly but I'll try!

There are several different seal profiles on the market including the blade type, which stands up on edge, and the round tubular bead type where the bead sits proud of the timber surface. You're right in saying that the blade type will bend backwards and forwards as the door opens but should still seal ok, but the tubular bead type compresses and deforms as the door closes, so might be a better option here.

Just to give you an example - have a look at 'www.coastal-group.com' - under the menu 'shop by product' select 'seals and gaskets' then 'Bubble Weatherseals' and you'll see what I mean. These work well but are limited in the range of joint gaps that they will seal - in this case to 6mm - so if the joint between upper/lower doors exceeds that then it won't seal it effectively. The alternative seal on their list - 'Hex Bubble Seal' covers 3 - 8mm joint gap.

That company's phone no is 01726 871025 so if you give them a call and speak to their tech or sales team and explain your needs they should be able to advise on a suitable seal; but check the joint width on your doors first!

As alternatives you could try the same with Sealmaster - tel 01223 83285.

Another to website look at is Lorient - 'www.lorientuk.com' - AURA architectural seals - AAS 7506 AURA perimeter seal- which is a T section seal with domed head which can be fitted to the rebated joint between the doors, the leg of the T fitting into a rebate routed into the head of the lower door so that the underside of the upper door contacts the head of the seal.

Just a thought, but it might be worth sitting down with your carpenter to have a look at these so he has an idea of what you're looking at ;D

Hope that helps.

Backinwellies

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Re: Stable type doors - can't work this out
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2015, 06:27:50 pm »
A porch roof??
Linda

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Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • Wester Gladstone Hebridean Sheep
Re: Stable type doors - can't work this out
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2015, 11:27:42 am »
A porch roof??

They are porches, with roofs and walls.
www.scothebs.co.uk

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

   Five Freedoms
   # Freedom from Hunger and Thirst.
   # Freedom from Discomfort.
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Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • Wester Gladstone Hebridean Sheep
Re: Stable type doors - can't work this out
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2015, 11:33:15 am »
Thank you everyone, especially UPoneacre.  I think something like that should work, so I'll set Mr F on it with the info and suggestions you've made.  Think we might get them ready made then add the seals etc ourselves, rather than getting the whole thing made.  We will only used ethically sourced European oak, so that alone has added extra problems, but I have found an appropriate candidate.  The manufacturer said what I wanted couldn't be done, but now I believe it can.  Thank you  :)
www.scothebs.co.uk

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

   Five Freedoms
   # Freedom from Hunger and Thirst.
   # Freedom from Discomfort.
   # Freedom from Pain, Injury or Disease.
   # Freedom to Express Normal Behavior.
   # Freedom from Fear and Distress

john and helen

  • Joined Mar 2013
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Re: Stable type doors - can't work this out
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2015, 07:31:02 am »
Don't they need to open outwards for fire regulations  ???

Bionic

  • Joined Dec 2010
  • Talley, Carmarthenshire
Re: Stable type doors - can't work this out
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2015, 07:54:14 am »
Don't they need to open outwards for fire regulations  ???


We have 2 stable type doors in our kitchen and they both open inwards
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harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Stable type doors - can't work this out
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2015, 08:12:30 am »
Don't all house doors open inwards? Stock doors open outwards.


Our stable type door is very solid and the frame is made of five pieces of wood that are quite thick. Two end pieces to make the uprights. Cross sections top, middle and bottom. The centre is made of tongue and groove type uprights that fit into the frame so it is all flush. The upper door has a small window in it.


Bottom door looking out at it - the top cross piece is higher at the front than the back. It is a single piece of wood which slots into the two uprights pieces. No nails. The door is quite thick and the outside edge which sits higher is about half the thickness of that top cross piece of wood.


Top door looking back in from the outside - the bottom cross section is the reverse design of the top. So,when it is open the inside edge is lower than its outer edge.


When the doors are closed together the two pieces which stick up and down from the two halves meet making the whole door flush when closed and seals the join with no other seals at all. Never lets in the weather.


The piece which sticks up on the bottom door means the top door can't go passed the bottom when they close together.


The next trick is to have latches/fasteners in the right place. You will won't to be able to secure the bottom when the top is open but also be able to secure top and bottom together so it can be open as one door not two halves.

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Penninehillbilly

  • Joined Sep 2011
  • West Yorks
Re: Stable type doors - can't work this out
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2015, 10:30:44 am »
Can anyone put profile pics up of what they  mean?
I have a similar problem  with a stable door into the barn, when it rains from the switch we have a pond :-(
The descriptions have given me ideas but I'm a bit  confused with some of the terms used and ideas given

 

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