[crobertson]

Just looking for some advice regarding what tup to use on ewe lambs ?

We have 6, good sized, texel ewe lambs which we intended on putting a tup to this year (they are a good size / well developed). What breed of ram would be best
I wanted to avoid bigger breeds such as texels, suffolks due to the possible lambing difficulties for ewe lambs. I was advised by a friend to go for a charollais (what they use) but wondered if there were any other easy lambing breeds - I quite like lleyns but have no experience with them.

These are our first ewe lambs but we have lambed for others a lot.

Thanks in advance !!!

[Marches Farmer]

A Down breed is the traditional choice for easy lambing with robust lambs and good conformation. 

[Keepers]

I lamb ewe lambs within my commercial flock every year with good results 

This year I have 50 texel cross ewe lambs to tup, they are all going to my charmoise rams for easy lambing, hardy lambs that produce a fantastic carcass when grown.

Last year I put my welsh mule ewe lambs, charollais cross and shetland cross ewe lambs to the charmoise ram with very good results, I didnt have to pull a single one and they all grew very well on the grass even though it was poor over the dry summer

I sold/hire out some charmoise tups this year to go on to ewe lambs (and ewes), including texel cross ewe lambs, the previous tups used on my ram customers ewe lambs and ewes this year were all down breeds (funnily enough) including 2 using southdown rams, poll dorset, suffolk and oxford down rams

They were all seeking a hardier lamb, that was easier born and ended up looking like a texely cross lamb when sold live with no wool on the head without the need to creep when the grass dried off in the summer

If I couldn't get hold of a charmoise (likely scenario as the demand has been big for them this year) I would use something like a small charollais, berrichon, or if you dont mind what the lambs turn out like and just want good live lambs a maternal breed such as a lleyn would work just fine! or even a smaller breed for teeny lambs such as a shetland or similar would work

Good luck 

[Keepers]

P.S

I also know of small beltex rams and beltex cross charollais rams being used with good effect 

[waterbuffalofarmer]

I would suggest Lleyn. I have a friend who crossed Lleyn to texel ewes and the lambs were a decent size and were beautiful and had very good confirmation.

[SallyintNorth]

Are you likely to keep any of the resulting ewe lambs for breeders?  If so, that might affect your choice of tup breed.

Whereabouts are you?  If in t'South of England, Charollais would be fine. If somewhere colder/wetter, and lambing outdoors, choose a Charollais tup with wool on his head; the very bare tups beget very bare lambs, and if they're born outside on a cold wet night, they may not make it. (Although they are very active lambs, and usually get around to the milk bar very promptly.)

Lleyn would be easy lambing, I'd think, as they have less backside than most breeds.  If you would be keeping females, I'll add that as replacement ewes, I only have one criticism of Lleyn crosses, and that's that they have too many lambs.  But if you're somewhere warm with good grass, I'm told that's not an issue as they can rear three on good grass.  They don't work well hereabouts, our ground's not good enough to rear three on grass, Lleyn or not.

For lambing Texel type hoggs, I would say that the most important thing is lamb vigour.  You need lambs that will jump up and find the milk bar, no matter how silly the mother is being.

To which end, my two recommendations are Charollais and Shetland.

Shetland cross lambs grow well, and are very saleable.  The females are good breeding sheep, and the males will sell well as late season lambs, or as stores, because they'll likely be white and look more-or-less like Texels.

[Old Shep]

We never tup our texel ewe lambs, preferring to wait until they are bigger as shearings (we think teenage pregnancies!!).  We use a Lleyn tup on the shearings to great effect- much narrower shoulders for easy lambing,the lambs are born knowing what to do and jump up and suckle - ideal for first time mothers who are a bit clueless.  We had far too many diffcult births with texel shearings to a texel tup and the thought of a texel ewe lamb giving birth is worrying, although obviously some do. 

[crobertson]

Thanks to everyone for the replies !

But yes [member=10279]Old Shep[/member] that is exactly what we decided last night. We are going to leave them until next year and tup them as shearlings when they have matured a bit and we actuallly decided we would use a Lleyn tup too ! This is what we originally planned and prefer to do, it just seemed that we were more of the minority not tupping ewe lambs.

Thanks again.

[Marches Farmer]

it just seemed that we were more of the minority not tupping ewe lambs.

Tupping ewe lambs simply wasn't done until recent years and has maybe trickled down from the commercial flocks that see it as a way to get an additional crop of lambs before the ewes are cast to farms on kinder ground after three or four lambings.  The only local farmer I know that does this lambs inside and is set up for a lot of bottle feeding because he gets fed up with keeping the dams in adopters for days on end and still having them refuse their lambs (this is with Welsh Mules, usually easy to lamb and the best of mothers).

[Me]

Well, maybe he was before his time but my grandfather did and he has been dead 32 years so I suppose its what you mean by recent!

[Me]

Thanks to everyone for the replies !

Bit just seemed that we were more of the minority not tupping ewe lambs.

Thanks again.

Don't be afraid of being in the minority

[Keepers]

it just seemed that we were more of the minority not tupping ewe lambs.

Tupping ewe lambs simply wasn't done until recent years and has maybe trickled down from the commercial flocks that see it as a way to get an additional crop of lambs before the ewes are cast to farms on kinder ground after three or four lambings.  The only local farmer I know that does this lambs inside and is set up for a lot of bottle feeding because he gets fed up with keeping the dams in adopters for days on end and still having them refuse their lambs (this is with Welsh Mules, usually easy to lamb and the best of mothers).

Actually myself and others I know of who breed ewe lambs, do it not only to get another crop of lambs, but ewe lambs bred as ewe lambs make much better mothers as shearlings, this is proved time and time again as the ewe lambs which don't take to the ram and then are over wintered and lambed down as shearlings are easy to compare to the ones which did lamb as ewe lambs

Where does it say this was only done in recent years? would be interesting to read 
As if it is true that it was only done in recent years, then it must be due to the breeds progressing and maturing earlier these days and being able to be tupped much more successfully than compared with when they were just overwintered, or maybe more hill breeds being kept in a lowland environment than they used to be?

After weighing all of my ewe lambs a few weeks ago, the welsh mules (and others) which lambed had the same average weight as the ones which did not lamb in the spring, with actually some of the biggest ones having lambed, would be very interesting doing an in depth study on the lifetime of ewes lambed as ewe lambs compared to ones which didn't, although I think a study of this kind may have already been carried out, will have to do some googling!

[Azzdodd]

I lamb ewe lambs doesn't really affect there growth if cared for properly as said previously make better mothers as shearlings. An obviously you have an extra lamb from a ewe

[Marches Farmer]

Actually myself and others I know of who breed ewe lambs, do it not only to get another crop of lambs, but ewe lambs bred as ewe lambs make much better mothers as shearlings, this is proved time and time again as the ewe lambs which don't take to the ram and then are over wintered and lambed down as shearlings are easy to compare to the ones which did lamb as ewe lambs

As if it is true that it was only done in recent years, then it must be due to the breeds progressing and maturing earlier these days and being able to be tupped much more successfully than compared with when they were just overwintered, or maybe more hill breeds being kept in a lowland environment than they used to be?
[/quote]

I and most of the other farmers around here aim for zero mismothering which seems to happen when the first lambing is when they're fully grown and mature.  One year my neighbour's Badger Face tup got in with his ewe lambs.  When we compared notes we found those ewe lambs (on almost identical ground and management) were 10% smaller at maturity and produced two to three crops less lambs than ours. 

[Me]

Almost identical is often completely different though MF, one missed worm treatment or poorly selected treatment could explain the difference, different grass etc.

The next obvious point is did he manage his ewe lambs properly? Were they tupped at the right weight, fed the right amount, allowed to rear only one lamb, weaned at 10-11 weeks etc or did he allow them to get in lamb too light, just chucked them in with the ewes to be out competed, in effect under nourished them and expected them to milk for 16 weeks through the summer and grow to boot?

With ewe lambs if you are going to do it do it you must do it properly, comparing notes with unplanned or miss-managed ewe lambs in a different flock would likely show a weight difference... unless your stockmanship is far worse than I imagine it to be!