[Buffy the eggs layer]

Thanks Marches,


    I was trying out a few vocal sounds on them this morning. A whistle to mimic their chirping and the one that intrigued the most was making a popping sound with my lips.


The chip,chip,chip sound that I make for my chicks is lost on them as is tapping anything of interest with my fingernail to mimic mum alerting them to food. A grass sod in a tray has caused a stir with them this afternoon though I have read that they should not be exposed to grass or soil until 3 months old as their immune system will not be fully developed.


Sorry for diverting this thread I will submit a post about turkey behavior on another board

[kelly58]

Loving this post,  really interesting, l am also in agreement that sheep are not stupid. Mine also come when called and love having a rub and  cuddle 

[Hevxxx99]

They aren't stupid and indeed, when not panicked into acting as a flock they show a lot of interesting and intellegent social behaviour. 

I saw a fascinating thing once: a hill ewe had lost her lamb in a bog and stood all day bleating for it. I happened to be riding past in the evening and watched while a group of 3 or 4 ewes with lambs looked down at her from the ridge above, went nose-to-nose and then one peeled off, walked down to the grieving ewe, greeted her and they stood looking out over the bog together for a minute or two. Then the visting ewe turned and walked up the hill with the other quietly following. They reached the still-watching group, greeted the grieving ewe and all trundled off over the hill. It was very touching. I imagine that would have been a family group of several generations.

I've heard that these families will also naturally adopt orphaned lambs from within their group, but I've never seen it.

[Buffy the eggs layer]

Hev,


        thats an interesting story and makes me think that those of us who see this type of behavior are the ones who have the patience and perception to observe it. I don't find it difficult to accept that animals have the ability to communicate, remember, associate sounds with positive or negative results, be resourceful, work things out, learn from each other etc.


   I do find it difficult to accept that there are people who think animals are stupid. Or who put every behavior down to instinct or "cupboard love". Sadly in our society dogs seem to be regarded as the most intelligent of animals and everything else seems to be judged against them.


 I watched a programme once where the producer aimed to discover weather our cats "loved" us. Now there is a whole debate to be had about weather you can even quantify or measure "love" in humans let alone dogs or cats. However the test was that an owner left its dog in a room with a neutral observer and was greeted by the dog when he re entered as a returning member of the pack. Conclusion - A dogs wagging tail and the instinctive behavior designed to encourage a hunting pack member to regurgitate food = love. The same experiment was done with a cat who greeted its owner as a cat would, respectfully from a distance by raising its tail and diverting its gaze. Conclusion.....cats dont love us like dogs do. 


So until monkeys can herd sheep, dolphins can sit on command, elephants can lick our faces and sheep can fetch our slippers.............,

[Hevxxx99]

Indeed. Pack/flock/herd animals will always show more response to other individuals than solitary or loose group animals like cats.

And the measure of intellegence works on the basis and assumes humans are the pinnacle of intellegence anyway and that desirable signs of intellegence are those that humans display. Very circular.

I often wonder at the ability of dogs (and probably other animals, but dogs seem most studied) to understand human language: both vocal and body language and the comparative inability of humans to understand dog language. If we're so darned intellegent and animals are so stupid, why is it they have to learn our language and we don't do a Dr Doolittle and speak theirs?

Animal behaviour and especially communication has always fascinated me. 

[Hevxxx99]

I think Einstein had it right except in the case of animals, a fish wouldn't actually be bothered, but human observers would assume stupidity.

[Buffy the eggs layer]

Apparently we humans tend to focus on a persons right eye / read the right side of their face rather than taking in the whole.


I saw an experiment once where various animals such as apes etc were shown large images of human faces and apparently dogs are the only animal who read the right side. They have spent so many years living closely with us and being social/ group animals themselves have learnt to communicate with us well.


As you say it's a shame we havent bothered to do the same. Bared teeth and showing the whites of your eyes is a warning of aggression in a dog. In a human its called a smile and most dog owners greet their dogs with a smile teeth everyday. Most dogs respond submissively which we respond to positively  and a pattern of behaviour is established.


Dogs are very good at learning to communicate with us but most of them seem rubbish at speaking cat

[kelly58]

Looked at your blog Buffy, its great , made me laugh and smile. Its lovely to see a person who loves every minute with their animals. We get so much from them and they ask so little in return ( most of the time) 

[Buffy the eggs layer]

Thanks Kelly,


         I'm glad you enjoyed it. 

[Gwanwyn]

The key thing with sheep is that they appear to have tremendous spatial awareness. It seems to be ingrained.  I first noticed this trait with a pet lamb that I was putting outside in an orchard in the day and bringing in at night.  She was on a halter, and I was quite amazed when she led the way back to her pen  -   at only a few days old. The second time I had parked a car close by which was not there when she went out.  She baulked at it, then looked around very carefully, decided she was on the right route after all and went in to her pen.  It's as if she had a photographic memory of the route after just one journey.  You can see how sheep become " hefted" so easily. Possibly the earlier they experience something the more ingrained it is.

[Buffy the eggs layer]

I have observed the spacial awareness thing too and find that they are very keen to learn and communicate as long as you have the time to understand what they need you to know. I also find the the more experiences that animals or birds have at an early age the more relaxed and inquisitive they are as adults. This makes introducing new routines much less stressful later on.


I have got my young turkeys out of the brooder and into a coop and run already. They have discovered dust bathing in the run, returning to their coop to sleep under the heat lamp if it gets cold and some of them have discovered that when I put something in the red dish its worth investigating ( cos its mealworms ) They get to see the chickens, cats and wild birds as well as learning to perch and snooze amongst the straw in the sunny spots.


Nothing like as sparky and quick to learn as chickens or sheep but they learn something in their own time. They dont seem as food motivated as other animals so rewarding them will be interesting.

[Womble]

Yes it's weird, the turkeys we had were the stoopidest birds ever, but the peafowl (very similar in all respects) are incredibly intelligent. A friend of mine sold a peacock to somebody 20 miles away and it turned up back at her place three days later!

[waterbuffalofarmer]

Yes it's weird, the turkeys we had were the stoopidest birds ever, but the peafowl (very similar in all respects) are incredibly intelligent. A friend of mine sold a peacock to somebody 20 miles away and it turned up back at her
 place three days later!

I had this with a dog of mine. I had my first red welsh sheepdog from a neighbouring farm and she was an idiot, she ran after my sheep and wouldn't come back, I would be shouting at the top of my voice for hrs trying to call her back. There was a guy who trained sheepdogs and sold them to hill farms and he saw her one day and  asked me if I wanted to sell her. After I'd had a chat, and knew who he was, I agreed to sell her. He bought and took her away that day, in the evening I was locking up the house and saw a red shape on the doorstep, I opened the door and there she was. She had jumped out of the stable, as they mistakenly left it open, and had walked back home (about 5-6 miles) plus it was freezing cold and snowing. I let her in and called the guy, he was amazed and came to collect her, later I i heard she had been sold to a hill farm (in north wales I  think) and has done well. When I saw her I wanted to keep her there and then, as the dog I had thought was stupid was not and I had misjudged her. If she's still alive she must be about 15, but I doubt it.

[Buffy the eggs layer]

I think it can be so easy to jump to conclusions about stupidity when we dont really understand how others see the world or understand how they think.


One human who is regarded as highly intelligent is Stephen Hawking, he is funny and witty and grasps concepts that few of us can get our heads around. Yet if he didn't have that increadable communication device he would be slumped in the corner of a care home and disregarded as "not all there"


I have my ewes on a friends pasture for the summer to rest my land. We penned them in with electric fence and they were as good as gold. When they had eaten it down we moved the pen to fresh grazing.


My sheep are very quiet and dont tend to bleat unless something is wrong. When I went to check them one day they came running to the fence bleating. I knew that they were telling me they were hungry so I told them I would move them in a couple of days ( they are far from being thin sheep ). The next day some escaped onto the new pasture as they couldnt wait so we brought our fence moving day forward. The following day I walked along the edge of their newly fenced are carrying a bucket. They didn't run to the fence or bleat as they had the day before because they had what they needed.


What intrigued me about their behavior was that they can clearly leave my electric fenced paddock when ever they like if their need is great enough but they respected it as long as their needs were met. And when they did escape they didn't go on the rampage but simply grazed the new area quietly remaining near the rest of the flock. We let the others out to join them and then erected a fence around them.


I realise that I keep a calm and inquisitive breed and that they have more confidence in me and probably communicate more obviously than other breeds as a result but I suppose my point is that just because we dont understand why animals dont always do what we want them to do, it dosent make them stupid....it makes us stupid. 


People tell me that sheep are always looking for ways to die but perhaps they get themselves into bother just trying to survive.

[Womble]

OK, I concede. It wasn't the turkeys that were stoopid; it was me!

We did have issues with the turkeys flying out over the electric netting, so I clipped their wings to stop them. They never escaped again, but then took to  roosting on top of their house, 6 feet off the ground. I think they did it just to show me they still could!