[fsmnutter]

In two senses of the word. Just dragged the sheep in to separate hoggs and rams off for shearing tomorrow, the ewes to be done later in the weekend.
Horns are very useful when one is trying to get by you to catch hold of, but as I caught the last lamb and verdifish let out the last ewe, someone caught me back with their horns full on the knee!
Thank goodness for ice packs and arnica!

[Fleecewife]

Horns on sheep, especially lambs, are not for catching.  See my thread on dealing with a broken horn.
Sheep horns break on occasion when you try to catch them by the horn as they stampede past.  Horns are also very sensitive, and sheep absolutely hate being dragged around by them.

Revenge of the affronted sheep 

[Backinwellies]

Teaching students... One of the first things was not to handle a sheep by its horns.

[Big Light]

I have been working with horned sheep ( Blackies and Hebs mainly)  for most of my days (close to 40 years) i have seen a few horns broken in that time but never have broken one myself - there's time yet i guess -  but i suspect theres a little middle ground in this argument. If for instance a 2 horned shearling tup can't  be grabbed by the horns i.e. they are so weak then perhaps it shouldn't be used for breeding.

4 horns are alot more complex depending on the beast especially when things are fused or close together- as FW will know getting lambs past the stage where they can just be knocked off by a dunt is sometimes hard enough. I have a nice tup lamb thats getting there but i have a ewe lamb thats kept her side ones but managed to chip a bit off the top of one of the top ones !

I think often you can look at the general health of a sheep and if she is a toothless old ewe and horns are looking worn then theres probably a fair chance you need to be gentle. A younger stronger ewe / gimmer should be okay  - it also depends how you catch them if its close to the base less chance if its at the tip more chance and again if you come from behind it or its stationary good, if it s flying past you a 100mph  a rugby tackle  might be your best option rater than a tweaked horn
I agree with FW re the dragging with horns there are other ways to cajole them
Just my opinion but on an individual basis done correctly i see no issues if you are skilfull / gentle enough

[Coximus]

No need to - although I admit on one occasion my 4 horned heb ram has been tied to a gatepost to shear him........ and his horns too, as the shearer got cut twice and nearly gored before refusing to do him, and then I got a jab in the face and then neck (drawing blood) figuring, dead dave is not a good thing for me or the sheep, so he got tied up.
OTherwise tho, dont use horns to manouver sheep.

[Fleecewife]

Sorry to poop on your party guys:

This is from Defra's Code of Recommendations for the Welfare of Livestock, Handling and management.


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69365/pb5162-sheep-041028.pdf

48. Sheep should not be caught by the fleece alone.
They should be handled or restrained by means of a
hand or an arm under the neck (holding the neck
wool, if necessary) with the other arm placed on or
around the rear. Lifting or dragging sheep by the
fleece, tail, ears, horns or legs is unacceptable.
Care should be taken with horns, which may be
broken off if sheep are roughly handled.

[verdifish]

Sorry to poop on your party guys:

This is from Defra's Code of Recommendations for the Welfare of Livestock, Handling and management.


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69365/pb5162-sheep-041028.pdf

48. Sheep should not be caught by the fleece alone.
They should be handled or restrained by means of a
hand or an arm under the neck (holding the neck
wool, if necessary) with the other arm placed on or
around the rear. Lifting or dragging sheep by the
fleece, tail, ears, horns or legs is unacceptable.
Care should be taken with horns, which may be
broken off if sheep are roughly handled.

So catching horned sheep gently using the horn is ok !

[Buttermilk]

Does this rule out using a leg crook for catching a sheep?

[verdifish]

Any techniques or bits of kit in the wrong hands can be deadly .!

[Me]

There is using horns, tails etc to catch and pull vs use as handles to hold/restrain as you push, eg. shorn ewes; I was catching culls out of the mob and pushing them out through a one way gate into a trailer. Right hand on base of tail, left under sheep's chin, my knees and legs push into body of sheep to make controlled and safe progress sideways to the gate.

I am open to change if any of you could demonstrate a more efficient and safe friendly way of doing this I am open to it. Monkey see monkey do (monkey taught this as best method in vet school but times change, also monkey's own experience shows it works well).

Sometimes catching by the hind leg is the best option, the devil is in the detail, 48. does mention "lifting" and "dragging" it is a guide. Catching a stationary sheep in a corner stood in a group and restraining in situ while its mates move away is a very different thing to catching a running sheep.   

[Thyme]

I was able to shear my Shetland rams standing this year with the only restraint being my left hand holding one horn.  They definitely seemed happier about that than being haltered, and much much happier than being tipped. 

[Womble]

I'm sure I'm the only person in the world who didn't already know this, but I recently found out you can steer Zwartbles by putting one hand under their chin and the other around the back of their head.

Previously I was trying by having one hand under the chin to stop them running away, and the other applying pressure to their back to try and get them to move, which they then seemed to resist. When all the pressure is gently around their heads, the sheep seems to follow wherever the head goes!!

Horns definitely not for catching a moving sheep. Momentum + leverage is too powerful a combination!

[Me]

I'm sure I'm the only person in the world who didn't already know this, but

I thought that was Point 1. Page one in The Idiots Guide to Life wasn't it?

You can borrow my copy if you lost yours  

[Fleecewife]

There is using horns, tails etc to catch and pull vs use as handles to hold/restrain as you push, eg. shorn ewes; I was catching culls out of the mob and pushing them out through a one way gate into a trailer. Right hand on base of tail, left under sheep's chin, my knees and legs push into body of sheep to make controlled and safe progress sideways to the gate.

I am open to change if any of you could demonstrate a more efficient and safe friendly way of doing this I am open to it. Monkey see monkey do (monkey taught this as best method in vet school but times change, also monkey's own experience shows it works well).

Sometimes catching by the hind leg is the best option, the devil is in the detail, 48. does mention "lifting" and "dragging" it is a guide. Catching a stationary sheep in a corner stood in a group and restraining in situ while its mates move away is a very different thing to catching a running sheep.   

The method you are using Me is the correct one - hand under chin, other hand somewhere at the back or flank.  I think we all sometimes simply have to hold onto horns - it was the routine use of dragging and catching sheep by their horns which I objected to.
The Defra booklet is attempting to stop behaviour such as lifting sheep by their fleece - this bruises the muscle underneath, as can be seen if the sheep are on the way to slaughter - the meat will be marked and of poorer quality.  That must hurt as it would hurt any species.  I have seen big hefty sheep lifted by a handful of fleece at the back, and a horn at the front - not kind.

Point 48 seems to be a guiding principle, but not a law, and is open to interpretation.  I'm sure we all want to treat our livestock in a humane way.

One great way I have found for moving a recalcitrant sheep, instead of dragging it along by the horns, or anything else, is to turn it round and push it, nose between your legs.  They don't seem to resist then, and no-one gets hurt.  The Fleecewife patented shoving a sheep method     Worth a try.  It also reinforces passing motorists in their belief that strange practices take place in the countryside 

[clydesdaleclopper]

One great way I have found for moving a recalcitrant sheep, instead of dragging it along by the horns, or anything else, is to turn it round and push it, nose between your legs.  They don't seem to resist then, and no-one gets hurt.  The Fleecewife patented shoving a sheep method     Worth a try.  It also reinforces passing motorists in their belief that strange practices take place in the countryside