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Author Topic: Hello from a newbie  (Read 12737 times)

Jon Feather

  • Joined Jun 2015
  • South West Cumbria
Hello from a newbie
« on: June 07, 2015, 07:15:34 pm »
Hi there.  New to the forum but had a small holding for 20 years now.  Always concentrated on poultry and veg before but now looking at native sheep (open to suggestions of other livestock too) and I would appreciate the thoughts of more experienced keepers of sheep.

The situation.
We have a 6 acre ancient grassland field that a local farmer used to graze his sheep on: about a dozen.  He doesn't need the grazing any more so we are thinking about getting some of our own stock to keep the grass down and earn a penny or two at the same time.  (I hope profit isn't a dirty word on here).
 
The site.
We are in Cumbria, right by the sea and get a lot of wind and rain. :raining:

Our thinking so far.
We have 2 horses on the field that bring in a few pounds but don't eat nearly enough grass.  Our thought so far are Shetland, Manx, Soay or similar sheep or alpacas or llamas.  We are prepared to put in the time and effort needed to look after them but don't want a highly bred commercial breed that will need a lot of experienced husbandry.  We are both vegetarians but would be happy to rear for meat because we have a small local slaughter house near by.  We are also hoping the fleeces will be saleable too.

I would welcome your thoughts and suggestions.

Jonathan

« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 11:54:26 pm by Jon Feather »

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2015, 12:18:02 am »
First off, if you want some income from fleece, take great care to buy stock with excellent fleece.  That might sound obvious, but there is a huge variation in fleeces, and spinners, felters and other crafters will only be interested in the very best.  Depending on the breed you eventually choose, I or others on here may be able to point you at someone who has sheep with excellent fleece.

Even with sheep that genetically should produce good fleece, many, many factors can cause a fleece, or an entire clip, to be of no interest to crafters - whatever the breed of sheep.  Some breeds are particularly prone to the fleece being unusable when harvested.

Much of this next bit is received knowledge; I have personal experience with a very small number of some primitives (6 Castlemilk Moorits, 2 Manx Loaghtans and their Shetland x offspring, 4 Shetlands and several Shetland crosses) over the last 3-4 years, but read (and seek out and watch and listen) avidly about other people's experiences. 

Soays are the tiniest of all the native primitives.  Very easy to look after (provided the fences are good and they have plenty to eat / no reason to want to escape ;) - which is true of most of the primitive breeds), great feet, super meat (but not very much of it on each carcase.)

Soay fleece is interesting to spinners because it is rare, but it is not actually very nice for spinning.  It is rare because it is very difficult to harvest - Soays, even more than other primitive breeds, are 'self-rooing', and shed their fleece in patches.  So you would either need to 'glean' the bits of wool they leave on fences and plants, or would need the sheep to be so tame you can catch them every week or so in May and June and pull off whatever is ready to come at that point. 

Next in size and also interesting because very rare is the Boreray.  This is a breed that needs a lot of help; it's the most endangered native breed.  It's not a novice spin, and some of the fleeces are frankly horrible.  However, because it is so very rare, and is double-coated, and is multi-coloured, then you would find buyers for fleece if you manage to get good quality fleece off your sheep.  However, being a double-coated fleece, the fleece can get ruined while still on the sheep's back.

Similar, slightly larger, and used to seaside living  :D, is the North Ronaldsay. This is the one that is famous for living on seaweed.  There is a flock in Northumberland which are super sheep with lovely fleece, and are used to more copper in their environment than the island sheep could handle, should you decide on these.  These are also double-coated, but nice fleeces will have spinners queuing up.

Hebrideans seem to be very easy to look after, a decent carcase, and nice Heb fleeces are a joy.  However, all spinners have been offered really horrible Heb fleeces - it's another breed whose fleece is very prone to felting - so you may not find it easy to find buyers for your fleeces.  Others on here know way more than I will ever do about Hebs and their fleeces, so I won't write more about them.

Manx Loaghtan are intelligent and wily, and a nice Manx fleece is total luxury, IMO.  My own two are very inclined to self-roo in patches, so it is not always easy to get a nice fleece off them, however.  My one Manx is the most escapey of all my sheep - she doesn't regard it as escaping, she just comes to find me when she needs something  ::)  :hugsheep:

Castlemilk Moorit are elegant sheep, slightly larger than the foregoing, and a really nice CM fleece is wonderful, though not appealing to all.   I only know two breeders who have really excellent fleeces, however ;).  All the primitives have really tasty meat, and CM is quite distinctive.  It's lean and almost gamey - most people really love it, even if they generally do not like lamb.  My own CMs have been friendly sheep, not hard to look after.  Less inclined to go walkabout than some other primitives ;)  I got 55kgs butchered meat off 4 3-year old wethers.

Shetlands are smaller than the CM, but have the benefit of being readily available and coming in many different colours (very appealing to crafters.)  Again, not all Shetland fleeces are nice, and some nice ones aren't usable (some have a 'break', or weak spot, in the fibres, which makes them useless), but good ones are superb. 

Portlands are from way further south, and hard to find up here, but there is a flock in the Borders.  Nice Portland fleece is very nice - but not all Portlands have nice fleece (are you seeing a pattern here?!)  The meat is delicious.  If you can get sheep with nice fleeces, you would find buyers for them, as there are not many available this far north.  Portlands have been used for conservation grazing on Braunton Burrows in North Devon, and did a good job, requiring very little intervention / maintenance.

You could also consider crossbreeds.  If you cross a Shetland with anything larger, you get a much larger sheep than the Shetland, but often retain most of the good characteristics of the Shetland.  I have some Blue-faced Leicester cross Shetlands, and one which is 1/4 Blue-faced Leicester, and they are excellent sheep, producing decent fat lambs and a superb fleece. 

I have also crossed my Manxes, and been very pleased with the progeny.  There seems to be lots of hybrid vigour in a Manx cross - they've been larger than their parentage would have led you to expect.  They retain the Manx' wiliness, though ;)  And walls are just vertical paths...  ::)

Get yourself to Woolfest at Cockermouth Fri 26th June / Sat 27th June, and have a look at some of these breeds, talk to some owners, and see what appeals.  I don't think all the breeds I've listed will be there, but some will.

Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Penninehillbilly

  • Joined Sep 2011
  • West Yorks
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2015, 12:27:59 am »
Found that really interesting Sally,
I'm guessing double coated fleece involves a 'soft undercoat', but why does it get ruined while on the sheeps back?

Tim W

  • Joined Aug 2013
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2015, 12:24:22 pm »
Do you eat cheese/milk/yogurt ? Milk sheep ?

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2015, 12:33:07 pm »
Found that really interesting Sally,
I'm guessing double coated fleece involves a 'soft undercoat', but why does it get ruined while on the sheeps back?

The very soft, short fibres felt really easily, and the back of a sheep in warm weather (or just warm because she has so much wool on!) has all the ingredients to make felt ;)
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

clydesdaleclopper

  • Joined Aug 2009
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2015, 12:59:23 pm »
I have sheep that are for fleece as well as meat - they are Gotland x Shetland and I always have people wanting to buy the fleeces. I believe Anke has the same cross. They are very friendly and easy to handle with good feet.
Our holding has Anglo Nubian and British Toggenburg goats, Gotland sheep, Franconian Geese, Blue Swedish ducks, a whole load of mongrel hens and two semi-feral children.

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2015, 01:02:28 pm »
You won't earn more than a "penny or so" from a dozen sheep (probably less most years).... given the set-up costs and that all sheep products (like wormers, fly-repellents etc) are aimed at the farmer with a few hundred of them...

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2015, 01:07:13 pm »
whoops, just cross-posted with Clydesdaleclopper...

re feet - yes the cross-breds have better feet than the pure Gotlands, Gotlands are big sheep that also require quite different management if you want to maximise income from fleece

Shetlands are still the best option IMO -- colours available, not expensive to buy, also good to eat even if a few years old  or buy in wether lambs in the autumn, feed on hay (plus grass) only in the winter, shear in the spring for 1st fleece, feed over summer on good grass (nothing else), then into the freezer in the autumn with the skins being tanned. also easily bucket-trained

Jon Feather

  • Joined Jun 2015
  • South West Cumbria
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2015, 01:41:53 pm »
Do you eat cheese/milk/yogurt ? Milk sheep ?

Thanks for the response.
To answer your question, yes we do.  Lesley doesn't really like milk, I take skimmed in my tea and we both like vegetarian cheese.  Never tried sheep's milk.  What is it like? 
I quite like goats cheese dishes (quiche etc). Lesley can't stand it.

Jon Feather

  • Joined Jun 2015
  • South West Cumbria
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2015, 01:52:02 pm »
You won't earn more than a "penny or so" from a dozen sheep (probably less most years).... given the set-up costs and that all sheep products (like wormers, fly-repellents etc) are aimed at the farmer with a few hundred of them...

I take your point about a dozen sheep.  With c6 acres we were thinking we could keep about 25 shetland size sheep.  We're not expecting to make a fortune but we need our land to start paying its way.

Jon Feather

  • Joined Jun 2015
  • South West Cumbria
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2015, 01:54:40 pm »
whoops, just cross-posted with Clydesdaleclopper...

re feet - yes the cross-breds have better feet than the pure Gotlands, Gotlands are big sheep that also require quite different management if you want to maximise income from fleece

Shetlands are still the best option IMO -- colours available, not expensive to buy, also good to eat even if a few years old  or buy in wether lambs in the autumn, feed on hay (plus grass) only in the winter, shear in the spring for 1st fleece, feed over summer on good grass (nothing else), then into the freezer in the autumn with the skins being tanned. also easily bucket-trained

Shetland are number 1 on our list at the moment.  My amateur research, so far, suggests it might fit the bill for us.  How many would you think we will happily get on 6 acres?  And do they really need hay in the winter? 

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2015, 02:13:41 pm »
I feed mine hay in winter (not ad-lib, I but fill up the hayracks in the morning, once it's gone there will be no more until the next morning), but I am in-land with often heavy frost. I also find they are just happier with a bale of hay a day... Definitely hay if ground is snow-covered.

Stocking rate really depends on your grass quality, and if you are able to subdivide the field, to allow for resting of the pasture etc... If you also think about lambs etc your stocking density needs to be lower. 3 per acre would be my max to start with, possibly less.

Jon Feather

  • Joined Jun 2015
  • South West Cumbria
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2015, 03:16:29 pm »
I feed mine hay in winter (not ad-lib, I but fill up the hayracks in the morning, once it's gone there will be no more until the next morning), but I am in-land with often heavy frost. I also find they are just happier with a bale of hay a day... Definitely hay if ground is snow-covered.

Stocking rate really depends on your grass quality, and if you are able to subdivide the field, to allow for resting of the pasture etc... If you also think about lambs etc your stocking density needs to be lower. 3 per acre would be my max to start with, possibly less.

Thank you for that. 
We rarely get snow but when we do our farmer friends feed theirs on silage.   
We cannot subdivide our field because of our agreement with Natural England.  The pasture is species rich, ancient grassland and unimproved. 
Our farmer friend used to keep 12 texel type sheep with lambs on our field and they didn't quite keep the grass short enough.  It was always a bit long and tussocky in places.  I was thinking of about 25 shetland (or similar) because they are roughly 1/2 the size and assume they are more efficient converters of grass???

I really appreciate yours and everyone elses input on this.  It is invaluable to a beginner.

jward

  • Joined Dec 2013
  • Stockton-on-Tees
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2015, 04:57:15 pm »
I've got Shetlands and they are my first sheep too...excellent breed, very hardy, easy to bucket train (or wave a plastic feed bag at them and they all come running), wide range of colour and markings etc)

If your grass is good quality then I'd say easily 25-30 + on the field.  I started out with 12 in a 4 acre field last year (after it'd been hayed) and they still couldn't get it down over winter.  I put hay out for them when there was snow / frost and they preferred to ignore it and nose through the snow to the grass instead.  I took them out in Feb to grow on for hay and it was longer than when they went in.  Now I've got all my ewes and lambs plus a few commercial ewes/lambs in a field that is probably stocked more than people would recommend  :innocent: with horses and it's still growing faster than they can eat it!

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: Hello from a newbie
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2015, 05:12:21 pm »
The problem is in a large field the sheep can be choosey about what they eat, which is why subdividing and regularly moving around is a good solution. But I am struggling with it too, as I also use rented fields...

Even after they have eaten most of a field we find it best to mow it once over, just to get rid of all the bits they didn't eat and to avoid (as much as possible) it going tussocky.

Starting with a lower number will allow you to assess how much you like handling sheep, I found going from 12 (which is what I started with) to just over 30 was initially very stressful and all of a sudden I had sheep with problems and it took a lot longer to deal with them all... simply higher numbers means more problems... Shetlands in general are quite hardy though.


 

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