[Borderlands]

Hello ASH's

I've been a long time user of the site and lurker on the boards but have only just registered to post today!

I really would love your input on this.

My partner and I have been offered a small holding to rent (just over 40 acres). It's very run down but has a great big farmhouse and plenty of sheds.
This has literally come up as an option this weekend. Up until now we are working his families sheep farm and intended to apply for a council farm at the end of the year. There is a 60 acre one coming up which we believe we have a good chance of securing. It also comes with a house and one shed. Rent wise it's just over 6k a year less than the private holding.
So far it seems like a no brainer but for me it's not. The smaller property seems to offer more potential and is attractive in that the owner (a family friend) is happy to take us on with no guarantor or large deposit and will pretty much leave us to it. It has its own water supply, woodland, hills (and all those sheds!) whereas the council farm is a bit more of a known quantity. It's 60 acres of field and one 6 bay shed.
OH comes from a conventional farming background and is crunching numbers on the amount of stock we could keep and believes the smaller farm wouldn't be viable but I'm drawn to it and perhaps a way of doing things differently. rather than quantity I'm thinking quality, we are currently organic and I at least would like to remain that way, but I have no idea of how to do things on a smaller scale. Have any of you any advice or suggestions?
I guess I'm asking what you would do?

[doganjo]

A long time ago I was told by a farmer that 60 acres was the minimum size to be viable, but i have no idea why - he didn't go into details.  But a £6k difference in rent, even though you have to jump through some hoops is a BIG lot of money you could be spending on surviving!

[AndynJ]

Hi,

Just my opinion,
40 or 60 acres will be very difficult to make a living on.
Why do you think you've got a good chance at the county farm ? my experience unless you class as a young farmer you'll really struggle to hit the mark for county farm.
If you do intend to go for County (my opinion) you'll need to have formal qualifications, trading history in your own name, your own flock, a stack of money for tenant incomings.
How many farms have you been shortlisted for ?
There was a 70 acre here 6 months ago the rent was around £16k full stewardship on the land with land input requirements.
To answer your question.
If you do not take the private rent and then you don't get the County farm what then ?
As for 40 or 60 acre personally I would look at quality of the ground and the type of stock, so if it's sheep I'd take soil samples, I bet the county farm has been stripped of all nutrients, so £12000 in the first year for organic fert's then there's the fencing at roughly £3 a metre one farm may need nothing, the County farm generally will give 7 year tenancy.
The rent being 6k less it's actually more than that because of the extra 20 acres.
Good luck, do let us know what you do.

[Rosemary]

I think to make a living off that acreage you have to do something different - maybe add value to your produce. How are each situated in relation to potential markets? What else is local in terms of say farm shops? Is that something you would want to do?

And I guess it depends how much of a living you have to make to be content.

[Fleecewife]

My slight niggle about the 40 acres is 'never have financial dealings with friends or family'.  It's all hunky-dory with them at the moment, but things could change.  If by 'no guarantors' etc you mean things won't be done formally, then you could suddenly find a few years down the line, after working hard to spruce the place up, that you're equally informally out on your ear.  With the county farm you at least know the period of the rental, but I agree that that scheme is so difficult to get into.

However, like you I tend towards the 40 acres and a free hand, but please get everything done legally and formally.

Which ever you choose, you're in for a whole lot of hard work - but sounds like you're up for the challenge  .

[Porterlauren]

Being very honest, making a viable living off either 40 or 60 acres, will take some lateral thinking. It certainly wouldn't be possible through 'conventional' farming methods. It also would not be a full time job!

As said though, 40 good acres are more productive than 60 poor acres.

[Borderlands]

Great thanks all! Some really good points

We are a young farming family over the border in Wales, both studied agri and ticking enough boxes to get it we think. We currently run the families 800 acre sheep farm with a small flock of our own, some equipment (well dog and bike but up here in the hills you don't need much else!), and some savings.
The plan for the council farm was calf rear in the shed and outdoor lamb a flock. Not going to set the world alight but enough to make a bit of a living and hopefully help push up on in the future to a bigger farm.
That was the plan anyway
Now I'm thinking of all sorts of things... could 40 acres, managed well and diversified provide I wonder? I'm not expecting any return for a couple of years, OH will still work pt on the family farm and I will work pt so we have a full time wage coming in.

[marka]

Hi Borderlands<
Firsty, welcome from Moray

Secondly, my twopenneth as follows:-
Theres an old saying that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush and this applies here - If you wait and dontb get the County farm, then admittedly you wont be any worse off than you are now but you will probably have missed the opportunity with the 40 acre farm.
That said, you will need to assess what you want to do with the less acreage and as we all know, you will always want more land but that is the same whether you have 4, 40 or 400 acres.
My advice would be to go for the 40 acre farm, make sure its all legal and you have a formal long term agreement and then make it your own - there are lots of ways to add extra value even from the smaller area so plenty of options and you'll probably be happier if this one is the one you want.
I hope this helps but probably just makes you even more confused.
All the best
Mark

[Sbom]

Just because the rent is cheaper now doesn't mean it'll stay that way. Council like to have regular rent reviews and the rent only ever goes one way!
I'd stick with guaranteed 40acre.

Good luck 

[Borderlands]

Thanks both that's what I'm thinking too....

[AndynJ]

Borderlands, actually if your in Powys you do stand a chance, they used to require that you have at least applied for at least 2 farms before they will give you on, and they do like you to either be qualified or on a course Newtown offer some really good courses, and one of the lecturers is on the County Farms committee.
Also going back to my earlier post, not only look at nutrient levels look at elevations and height as in the winter the sheep may need to come down.

[hughesy]

All this talk of not being viable unless you have xx acres is only relevant if you continue along the route of "traditional" farming. OK 40 acres might not be enough to keep a meaningful flock of sheep on but there are other ways to farm than sheep or cattle.

[AndynJ]

All this talk of not being viable unless you have xx acres is only relevant if you continue along the route of "traditional" farming. OK 40 acres might not be enough to keep a meaningful flock of sheep on but there are other ways to farm than sheep or cattle.

The 40 acre is a county starter farm they seem to like traditional and most the starter units in Powys aren't the best land options, out of interest Hughesy what would you suggest may turn a profit on a 40 acre I'm guessing with a little altitude.

[devonlady]

Borderlands, I think you know where your heart lies? Good luck

[Borderlands]

Thanks again all.
I've not got the hang of the quote thing so I'll just reply to y'all and try to remember the questions

The 40 acre isn't as high as where we currently farm and we lamb half the flock (around 300) outdoors - good old hardy Welsh! So not concerned about that too much.
The council farm is the larger but yes I suspect it's been not brilliantly managed. The smaller one hasn't had stock on it two years it's just been silaged and that's it.
Neither one is going to pay if we *just* raise sheep. My question is whether some well raised produce be that lamb, pig, beef or even goat marketed well could pay? A quality over quantity PoV? I'm looking at other thing as well, possibly a smoke or curing house, a kitchen for homemade balms and tinctures (I'm a forager and herbalist), even a biodynamic farm... Not sure yet but just thinking if *neither* will pay imo we're better off going for what will offer the most potential and that seems to come from diversification...