[cloddopper]

Clansman
I ran a commercial rabbit herd for a long time both for meat and other sales .
 Before I started the enterprise I did several years of deep research and visited many many commercial and semi commercial set ups from Prestigne in Wales  to Hythe Kent to just before Stranraer ( SP ?)    . I also did  a full time  five day technical course in veterinary care for rabbits at Bristol university and had to jump through several hoops for the home office scientifc approvals .

The welfare of rabbits kept on sand in a cage would like as not see you get prosecuted if your were caught doing it ..such is the effect of animal welfare legislation when  set along side the " five freedoms " .

 Like has been said

 Rabbits out of cages in the wild are quite a different kettle of fish to domestic ones housed in cages .
Rabbits can go down their burrows to escape the biting flies caged rabbits can't .
Soft wood shavings & coarse dedusted wood pulp , pellets  & coarse sawdust  , even denatured shavings still have a slight resin content that helps disinfect and also deter flies beach sand does not , it's usually full of all manner of decaying mater and fly eggs .
 Whilst i agree that :-
Wet shavings will freeze in winter, exactly the same as wet sand would, ...
There is still quite a lot of insulation quality in damp. wet  sawdust that is not there in damp wet sand it is to do with density & the volume of air in it . The sand will be much more dense so conduct more heat away quicker.

 Sore hock
The wild rabbits normally die from disease when they get sore hocks from abrasions , carrion crows etc eat tehm so you don't often see a newly dead rabbit on the surface , those that die in the burrows you'll never normally see.

 Sore hocks happen in caged rabbits quite often in a commercial herd & fairly often in domestic caged rabbits  if there are triggers for nit such as nails , splinters too thin a wire floor or bacterial infection & irritants .
It is horrific for the only way to stop it is to cull any rabbit with infected feet or baldness on their hocks .
Beach /dune sand and salt are skin irritants to sensitive rabbits and as already said breeding grounds for infectious bacteria why expose your stock to such things & risk harming them ?

Burning peat or shaving /bedding that has had rabbit pee & muck in it stinks for miles down wind no mater how dry you think it is , I know , I got an Environmental Health  Office  stop order placed on me for doing it.
The  mound was twenty five  mtrs long by about three metres wide by a  metre or so high & had only been burning for the second day ,with the smouldering started at one end and only progressing some two metres along the pile .  My nearest neighbours were farmers  about half 1/2 a mile away but all the complaints came from a small hamlet almost two miles away  .

In the nicest possible way ..not trying to be abrasive etc.  You have to take on board that just because you can't find something on the internet to prove your line of thought is that it does not exist , you also have to do a lot of thinking things through rather than relying on the internet as the golden oracle of knowledge /font of reality , especially wikki and the like  .

[Clansman]

A lengthy reply Cloddopper but no sign of the proof I was asking for to back up your claims.

I was aware of your commercial experience but how much of that involved rabbits kept on sand ?

I have over 25 years experience in almost every field and aspect of commercial poultry but I would not have a clue about keeping poultry on sand as i've never done it.

The welfare of rabbits kept on sand in a cage would like as not see you get prosecuted if your were caught doing it ..such is the effect of animal welfare legislation when  set along side the " five freedoms " .

A bold claim which purely from a common sense perspective I seriously doubt to be true.

if the above is true, it should surely be easy for you to provide us with some proof.

I have spoken to the SSPCA regarding keeping rabbits on sand as well as a few very experienced rabbit keepers and no one has mentioned it as a welfare issue as you claim, which seems odd?

The SSPCA seemed more than happy at the prospect of rabbits on sand and positively encouraged it!

My guess would be that this is just more scaremongering on your part but I shall keep an open mind for now and await to see if you do eventually provide some proof before I decide.

I have to question this whole issue of wet litter and flies which keeps arising.

I keep most of my rabbits on sawdust, i remove any wet sawdust every couple of days and change the sawdust weekly, my rabbits are not sitting or sleeping on wet sawdust.

If i were using sand I would be doing exactly the same, they would not be sitting on wet sand either.

As for the flies, if the litter is not kept clean, dry and changed regularly this will happen, the type of litter used is irrelevant whether sand, shavings, sawdust etc

Excessive numbers of flies are a result of poor husbandry and hygiene, not the type of litter used.

Even a wire floored cage system with no litter whatsoever will attract flies if not kept clean.

I may have made an assumption here regarding Clarebelle's rabbit setup and passing on the advice about using dry peat as litter that I had been given by small scale island rabbit keepers.

These people like myself keep small numbers of rabbits, usually between 3 and 30ish and are therefore burning a couple of bucketfuls of peat at a time. 

I have assumed as we are on a smallholder forum and from the fact that Clarebelle is on the island of Orkney that her set up was similarly sized.

Clarebelle, if you are running a large commercial rabbit operation on Orkney producing a 25 metre long midden of waste litter please disregard the info on peat burning.

Cloddopper, the internet has been around for a while now and although I appreciate many are still sceptical of it as a resource and that there is a large amount of misinformation on it too, when we search for something on it that produces zero results I have to question the validity of what I'm searching for..

As before, still waiting on the proof, if its true about a welfare prosecution for using sand it should be easy to prove.

[Mammyshaz]

I can't see it being that much different to sawdust in regards to soaking up urine and its soft enough for hocks. All confined rabbits have issues with nails unless clipped so again not a problem on sand as you will be dealing with this anyway.?  Sand a welfare issue?? I don't think so!
My only concerns would be that with rabbits being diggers there would be a high chance of eye problems and blocked tear ducts which is a problem with sawdust too but sand particles being smaller, sharper and travelling further when dug about are more likely to get into eyes.
 (Chinchillas use a very fine volcanic sand to dust in but a friend used a coarse type also sold as chinchilla dust and ended up with surgery on her little chap for eye ulcers    and their eyes and coat are designed for sand, it just needs to be the right sand. Chinchilla dust is expensive so probably wouldn't be an option for you.)
Saying that the proof will be in the pudding so to speak. I'd be tempted to try sand with one or two groups and compare. It will be interesting to see how well they do on it 

[cloddopper]

T'will indeed be interesting ..good luck lass .

 Clansman,
 Re :- The O/P asking about sand as a bedding  material for caged rabbits .

This is a  link to the RSPCA rabbit arena .. the bedding requirements are strongly suggested  in it , so is the latrine area .
You can if you want use a sand box for them to dig in  ,but that is usually for a communal area area not inside an individuals cage .
 

"   http://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwelfare/pets/rabbits/environment "   .  Click on the other associated subjects for a bigger picture on keeping rabbits .
Have a good read , you seem to have plenty of experiences of running stock see how it compares to what your think/do

I guess a lot of it will be close to being 180 degrees or so  to what you do , but that most of it will  backed /duplicated  by the SSPCA. & legally actionable under the animal welfare acts etc. .   ( the worlds gone mad in the UK )

If they are anything like the RSPCA people I have had dealings with ,  anything that can be construed as being done that does not meet their approval is liable to be said as being detrimental to the welfare of the creatures involved . It can and often does lead to prosecution by the organisation . I'm sure you've read of many instances on site about some of these things.

 This link is to how things are for welsh rabbit keepers. not just a pets either  There are many PETA types only too willing & happy to see you become unstuck.
 It says early on in this document , " Whilst it is a code of practice , prosecution may follow if you are found not to follow it " .

http://wales.gov.uk/docs/drah/publications/091109rabbitcodeen.pdf

[Clarebelle]

Some very interesting points raised, thanks everyone! I am definitely going to do a trial run starting in just one hutch and see how we get on.

Clansman 're: I have bought in bags of peat for the fire before but it was in quite large irregular lumps. Is there a specific type of peat you were meaning?

[Clansman]

Clarebelle, i assume that was what they used although probably just broken down into finer pieces but i will ask the question and let you know the answer.

Cloddopper thats not proof! 

All you've done there is to post a couple of links to some welfare recommendations, i've read them before, it doesn't say ANYTHING about not using sand.

In fact the only mention of sand is to recommend its addition as a digging substrate.

I'm pretty sure they'd have a job prosecuting someone for using sand after recommending its use in their own welfare recommendations!

How about showing us some real proof that says a definite no to using sand or someone who was prosecuted or even just warned for using it?

I asked the RSPCA for a definite answer and they told me to consult my vet.

I asked the question on a vets forum and although some weren't keen on the idea no one came up with a reason not to use it.

So i've now contacted the RSPCA asking if I would be prosecuted for using sand, i will post up their reply although I have a funny feeling their answer will be to tell me to contact the SSPCA!

One way or another i'll eventually get a defintive answer in writing from them and post it up here.

[Clansman]

Clansman 're: I have bought in bags of peat for the fire before but it was in quite large irregular lumps. Is there a specific type of peat you were meaning?

Yes its just the same peat but crushed, apparently running over a hessian bag of it in a Landrover or tractor is the best method! 

[cloddopper]

The only recommendations I've been able find yesterday & today for using peat is to cover it with a good layer ( whatever that is supposed to mean ) of straw , hay or denatured shavings , wood pulp , paper pulp etc & clean out the pee'd on stuff each day ,. though nothing technical to recommend it .

That SSPCA site is not very informative ..they just seem to want £ 15 or so for you to re-house a rabbit that they have hold of.

 I did find a natural earth type site that says when peat starts to dry out it produced lots of CO2 and carries on doing so even if the peat is re-wetted and kept wet .

  I love these cold wet days when I can play on the internet when ever I'm able , more playtinme tomorrow by the look of the weather forecast.

[devonlady]

I'm thinking of all that well fertilised sand/peat being dug into my clay and shale soil    What it would do for my carrots!

[cloddopper]

Fill 1 & 1/2 " foot tall 4 x 4 foot raised beds ( Builders 1 tonne bags set in a frame of pallet wood ).
With it and you could grow boobs on your baby brother no hassle as well as grow almost all other veg .
It will warm much quicker than the ground beds as well .  The nitrogen /ammonia content is not as vicious as normal animal dung manures so  you can spread it straight away on the mother earth veg beds or to top up & mix in on the raised beds and sow your seeds straight away .
 
 My 900 mm  raised beds contain lots of peat substitute ( shredded coir ) and pure rabbit commercial muck ..no mother earth at all .  I do get a few forked carrots but nothing like the beds that have had five month old ( " The Berkely 21 day hot composting method " ,to make high quality compost )  horse stable muck & coir in them .

[Clansman]

I can get nothing out of either the RSPCA or SSPCA about using sand as a substrate for rabbits!

Neither will commit to a definite yes or no! 

All I get is advised to ask my vet.

When I asked the vet they recommend wood shavings and advised me to ask the RSPCA as to the suitability of sand! 

[cloddopper]

I see you have discovered the revolving doors of the quango's HQ's .

 I've  spent many pounds and hours trying to get definitive info in traceable forms such as letters, emails, websites, reference books & HMSO publications , for I knew that one day I might well have to stand up and fight my corner with it , without it I'd have been right royally shafted and then some .

 One thing that has crossed my mind is that outdoors , sand , peat & soil are not only exposed to the carbonic acid ( mild disinfectant for some things ) in rain , the top soil is also sterilized  to a degree with ultraviolet rays from the sun ( even on cloudy days ) so lots of disease & bacteria etc are neutralized or reduced to quite low levels fairly quickly .

I suspect that won't be the case if those materials are used inside somewhere out of reach of the rain & sun 

[lord flynn]

UV doesn't penetrate surfaces very well though (good for impervious surfaces) and the type of UV that can disinfect/sterilise is pretty rare on Earth (atmosphere blocks it). Some microbes are quite resistant to UV and pathogens encased in faeces and/or other organic matter.
Desiccation is the microorganism's hardest condition to overcome-especially pathogens.

[cloddopper]

If I recall well ,
  I was led to believe the sun and elements do knock down quite a lot of nasites ..  I think but can't be certain , ( Stroke & memory these days sadly )that it is referred to as the weathering effect sterilization

[lord flynn]

If I recall well ,
  I was led to believe the sun and elements do knock down quite a lot of nasites ..  I think but can't be certain , ( Stroke & memory these days sadly )that it is referred to as the weathering effect sterilization

a lot don't survive outside the host for long true, depends on what they are but UV as a sterilisation tool has limitations. Not enough moisture will do for most of them (although some can form spores etc and viruses are a whole other ball game)-its why keeping bedding dry is so important. In the environment (whatever that is and it could be a host) organisms are very rarely in isolation, they survive the elements (and antibiotics!) by being in dirt and/or in complex colonies. Osmotic pressure can do it as well-ie salt drawing moisture away. UV can't penetrate more than 10um (although happy to be corrected by anyone who is up to date on water purifying) in water and that depends on particulate matter.
]I'm not being argumentative and have no dog in the fight here, but I am a bacteriologist by trade so get very excited by this sort of thing