[ambuka]

hi, i just started keeping 6 shetlands last summer. i lost one in the winter after the cold spell due to diarhea. and this summer i lost my favourite to apparently pneumonia. i wasn't sure if that was the true diagnosis as he was also stretching his back legs a lot, no-body yet can tell me why. the homeopath thought it might be selenium deficiency, but then his gait wasn't affected and neither are the others. can anyone shed light on this symptom for me?

 until ferdinand got sick ( and i had to give him antibiotics) i was keeping them organically, though the land was previously grazed by the local farmer, and then rested, and a couple did get in once or twice in the summer.he assures me that wasn't it! also it was after that, (and when the grass had got too long for them,- so maybe it wasn't footrot, but strip?) that a few of them got foot rot, which i treated succesfully at first with propolis. then ferdinand and one other got it much worse ( i think due to a bad idea from a horsey friend of using salt water), but he recovered thanks to the goldenseal, and then soon after he developed this lung disease, which i treated with antibiotics at first and then as it didn't completely work i thought to ask the homeopath (at Ffynonwen), and that seemed to work at first too, but then just as i thought i was over the worst, after nursing him for about 2 months, he just gave up.


i would really appreciate any pointers as to what i'm doing wrong. shetlands are supposed to be tough sheep aren't they?

[shetlandpaul]

get a good sheep book would be a start. and a good vet.  sheep do die that's a fact but having 2 out of 6 Shetlands die is worrying. we are complete beginners. but apart from accidents ie drowning we have managed to avoid illness. have they had there shots and been wormed. has there pasture has had sheep on it before high risk of worms and other nasties.

were are you. if your getting adult Shetlands getting lung problems i would get the vet in to check them over. were are you that has an impact on the bugs they get. foot rot is down to your management trim the feet and watch for lameness. its also best to give them a day to see if they have just banged a leg. don't cut to deep and spray with either violet or a antibiotic spray. if they have it bad isolate and inject with a long lasting antibiotic and pain killer. but your first call should be the vet. also don't start giving trace elements until there is a proven lack your risking there health giving them without knowing. ask a neighbouring farmer they love to be asked and it will help in the future. copy what they do when they do it they know when and how to treat them.

[kaz]

Have they been wormed and vaccinated?

[hexhammeasure]

the symptoms you describe as 'stretching his back legs would lead me to suspect bloat or other intestinal discomfort, sometimes its a sign of a ruptured spleen from jumping from a height as in when they play king of the castle or heavy gambolling. Check the field doesn't have poisonous plants in. ragwort etc

 

[woollyval]

I think....in fact I am pretty sure you have a worm problem as Shelands ARE tough sheep!
Keeping sheep organically is a real art and needs very careful management! It does not mean never using medicine to treat a problem but not to use it as a 'just in case'. Many animals suffer un necessary problems as owners think that keeping them organically means no wormer and no antibiotic

You must get a worm analysis done by a vet.....ask your vet, not the homeopath.....for details of how to take samples.

Then you will know if you have a problem and will be able to treat it appropriately!....most wormers are permitted under organic rules except ivermectins.
Same goes with feet, as soon as you get a foot problem treat it! If necessary with antibiotic!

Do not give trace elements unless you know there is a problem with your ground.

Again I reiterate.....get the sheep tested as I think you have a worm/fluke problem.
Get yourself on a sheep keeping course, get a good sheep book and a good vet.

[shetlandpaul]

they are very tough they wil take the worst weather and can happly get on with it by them selves but when they are in a closed field system they are going to get the same problems as other sheep. the live wild in lots of places up here a bit like the herdwicks. but even they nedd rounding up and treating shearing and footcare.
don't worry starting with sheep can be a big learning curve but you will learn. everyone of us has done stupid things when we started so dont worry but do try the more normal way of treating them. most sheep are nearly organic anyway.

[Snoopy]

Ambuka,

You have spent a lot of time and money looking after your sheep, and have had what seems to be, a run of bad luck and bad advice.
If I were in your situation, I would get to know a good vet, and ask them to come and see the sheep and the land, question them as much as  you can, and take it from there.

I know vets do not come cheap, but after all they have had the training and should give you solid and sound advice.

Good luck and well done, it is obvious you love your sheep
Julie

[ambuka]

thank you, for your help and encouragement.
 i don't think its possible that the second sheep died of the same as the first. his guts seemed to be fine, definitely no diarrhea anyway. the first developed it very quickly. quite a different pattern. but i will get it checked out, anyway.
is there no common organic way of treating footrot? (goldenseal worked well, and obviously did for my friend who discovered it and recommended it.)
also what about strip? our farmer swears its not a problem but for the long grass cutting them between their hooves.

[shetlandpaul]

if you dint treat foot rot you will be prosecuted for animal cruelty. there are lots of folks watching. i assume you mean scald if my mind serves me well that is a bacteria if left the bug that causes footrot sneaks in. as footrot is infectious to your other sheep treat them . scald is easy to treat if left you could end up having to cull the sheep with bad footrot. get some violet and spray it after cleaning. its the quickest and most humane way. why are you fixed on herbal treatments. these bugs are easily treat if caught early if messed about with your wrecking your sheep. if left then you need to start using antibiotics and pain killers.

so i take it if your avoiding treat there feet then you have not wormed and used spot on. flukes dont cause runny poo it destroys the liver.

i sound hard but your wanting to be organic is fine but your animals need treating. there are good organic wormers but you need advice from an organic farmer. animals first.

[woollyval]

I hate to sound hard Ambuka but there is a lot of confusion about what Organic actually is.....
It is not about not treating your animals for ailments, it is about managing them in such a way that they will avoid getting the ailments to start with and therefore will need treating less.......and exceptionally good knowledge and mnagement are needed AND a ot of advice and help from those who know how to do it!

Strip is another name for scald and strip/scald is extreemly painful and unpleasant for the sheep and if left untreated or not treated properly will ineviably lead to foot rot However a quick spray with antibiotic will cure it, plus possibly having your pasture 'topped' will help control it.

Regarding the difference in symptoms in your 2 dead sheep......I would still ask you when did you worm them and what with and did it include fluke?......

If you have not wormed them and not properly rotated the grassland you will inevitably have problems firstly from the worm burden in the field left by previous sheepy tennants and also from whatever came with your sheep when you bought them.......

[Moleskins]

this summer i lost my favourite to apparently pneumonia. i wasn't sure if that was the true diagnosis as he was also stretching his back legs

We had a ram that went down hill very fast one week after we got him home, he was fine up to that point.
It was Pasteurella which is the sheep equivalent of pneumonia and can be brought on in a number of ways  including stress. My other sheep which arrived at the same time were unaffected.
Part of this rams symptons were stretching his legs. I got him to the vet and he had two injections one of which was an anti inflamatory a couple of days later I gave him a repeat of the injections and two days after that he was as right as rain.

Your diagnosis could have been right, I stood looking at mine and thinking 'it's like he's got flu'

While I'm here I must add that the sheep went to the vet not the other way round and the bill was £21 for the consultation and the 4 jabs.  I would certainly be less hesitant to go to a vet next time.

[Ffion]

ambuka - Sheep are born to die i'm affraid, get yourself in contact with a vet, go to your local one and have a chat with them, there are several vets in a practice so if you dont get the answer you want from one try one of the others Alot of farmers these days are Organic so the vets should be able to advise you on the best treatment.  Ask your vet what you should be vaccinating against, dosing with, maybe even ask them to make you a program for the year of what you should be doing with your sheep.
You can do worm egg counts so that you dont have to over worm and get resistance to a particular drug, Have you heard of Coccidiosis?(like a worm)  not common in adult sheep (as they grow resistance to it) but in lambs it can be a killer if not caught early,  Fluke also, most common on wet pasture but not always.
Vaccinating against pneumonia and chlostridial disease should be a priority in my opinion, do you know the history of the field you are grazing? were there lots of sheep on it before you took it on? Disease can live in pasture for years. You can also vaccinate against foot rot. Dont forget Blue tongue vaccination's too.
With regards to pneumonia, if bad enough it might never completely go away without really strong antibiotics (stronger than terramycin which would be usual treatment)
If you get another loss, which I hope you don't, get your vet to do a post mortem so that you can find out why it died.

I hope I have been of some help to you, I have kept sheep since I was a kid and every year I get losses in some form or another - it's part of farming - Live stock - dead stock  you never get used to it but it's part of life.
Like others have said, get a good book, get friends with your vet and a neighbouring farmer or two!!!!! and dont be affraid to ask lots of questions 

If you need a chat feel free to contact me  Good luck with your sheep
Ffion

[Moleskins]

Lots of good info there from Ffion
I should just like to add my ram had been vaccinated against pasteurella but there are so many strains it doesn't cover them all.