Author Topic: Responsibility for pipes under land (Read 8055 times)

Sudanpan · « **on:** May 18, 2014, 08:03:13 pm »

My Dad has a tank in the back garden (underground) that collects land drainage and waste water from the kitchen.
The pipes then go from this tank to another tank in next door's garden, (not sure if any pipes from that house go into tank) then from this tank to a soakaway ditch at the edge of the green.
This drainage setup has been in situ for at least 30 years. It was in existence when my parents moved into the house in 1983 - and was most probably in place long before that.
Next door changed hands 2 years ago. The new owners have done a huge redevelopment of the house and they have now turned attention to the garden. The neighbour came to my Dad (he's 92, my Dad not the neighbour) and said that he wanted to remove the tank in his garden and redirect all the pipes - but he says he thinks my Dad should pay for it as it all starts from my Dad's garden......
My OH and my immediate gut reaction is that Dad is not obligated to pay for the works - the drainage setup was in situ when the neighbour bought the house. If he wants to alter the drainage then fine he can BUT he pays for it and he is obligated to make sure the result is at least as good as what was there before.
However - I am well aware that logic and land issues don't necessarily go hand in hand - can anyone point me in the direction of any info/guidelines?
Many thanks
Tish

doganjo · « **Reply #1 on:** May 18, 2014, 08:09:32 pm »

Check the title deeds, and find a lawyer. The neighbour has no business causing stress to a man of 92!

shygirl · « **Reply #2 on:** May 18, 2014, 08:49:57 pm »

our neighbours have soakaways and septic tanks on our land but it is fully written everyones deeds.
however there was a historic soakaway that was leaky badly last year on my neighbours land but leaking onto our land. no written record of this as it was built along time ago. both the council and SEPA were helpful in dealing with this, as the neighbours wouldnt fix it, but i agree that a solicitor would be a good point of reference.
citizens advice are also handy to speak to.

cans · « **Reply #3 on:** May 18, 2014, 08:57:12 pm »

"Check the title deeds, and find a lawyer. The neighbour has no business causing stress to a man of 92!"

I agree

Anke · « **Reply #4 on:** May 18, 2014, 09:55:03 pm »

Solicitor in the first instance. S/he could also request the property deeds from neighbour's solicitor to check what's in theirs.

We have someone else's water mains running through our field but it is their responsibility to pay for any upgrade if they wanted to do it and then a) give us enough notice before commencement of works and b) re-instate anything they changed. i.e. re-seed anywhere they had to dig.

stufe35 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 18, 2014, 10:15:32 pm »

Your dad will have an easement for his pipes, wether written into his deeds, or simply because it has been in place for over 20 years.
He is very unlikely to be obligated to pay anything, and what's more is entitled to the drainage routes he has and they should not be interfered with without his agreement.
If the neighbour wants to change things, it his cost and your dad should get detailed plans and assurances that at the end of the works he still has the same service. Solicitors need to be involved to draw up an agreement, the neighbour should cover all costs including your dad's solicitors fees.
I am no expert, for some free advice from some well informed people post your query on gardenlaw.co.uk.

Cheers. Stu

Small Farmer · « **Reply #6 on:** May 21, 2014, 06:14:16 pm »

While there should be an easement to provide rules as to who does what it doesn't really matter at this point if there isn't because of the length of time that it has been there. Essentially your father has adverse possession of the relevant bit of the property because no-one has either tried to kick him out or grant any form of conditional access. It used to take 12 years but I think it's 10 years now.

English law and Scots law differ, but the concept of possessory title is sufficiently messy for the neighbour that his solicitor should be advising him hastily to eat all the costs and make no more fuss.

chrismahon · « **Reply #7 on:** May 23, 2014, 11:58:46 am »

Adverse Possession applies only to land enclosed and exclusively used and maintained by the illegal occupant. The courts are getting very strict about this because it is in essence THEFT. However an easement over 20 years has been established unless the owner of the land can prove the tank and pipework were there by a grant of permission, which is not a permanent grant therefore. Otherwise it may be in the deeds of the adjoining house -get a copy of the Land Registry Title for both properties.

Can't see how it can be changed without disrupting the system, so a largely impractical idea I think. Solicitor will be largely useless here. It is a Barrister that will research the relevant case law, but unfortunately a Barrister can only be briefed by a Solicitor -job creation!!!

Just sit tight. The neighbour is a bully and if he starts harassing your father call the Police. They will tell him to get a solicitor. Hope your dad has legal cover as part of his house insurance because all this could be very expensive.

Sudanpan · « **Reply #8 on:** May 23, 2014, 03:33:34 pm »

Many thanks for the replies and input.
I will ensure that we get some legal input.

Hopefully we can sort this out on good terms with the neighbour.

Thanks again
Tish

chrismahon · « **Reply #9 on:** May 24, 2014, 06:38:27 am »

Get the Land registry Titles first Sudanpan. Easily done on-line at £8 each I remember. Saves the solicitor charging you for doing it (at £200 an hour) and all the answers may be in those documents anyway. You may not need the solicitor.

Small Farmer · « **Reply #10 on:** May 24, 2014, 10:52:15 am »

Not all land is registered - it wasn't compulsory for many decades after the LPA1925 established the register. We've just sorted out one where the last transfer was 1986 and the property was unregistered.

Getting the title meant sorting out a lot of issues with adjacent land which is not only unregistered but unclaimed so statutory declarations as to access were needed. There was also an issue with underground pipes under that land but with no owner it's not contentious - and in the title. The electricity transformer and pole aren't however. We found no trace of an easement so they're squatting. But it's also been there 50 years so it's not a problem

You can brief a barrister without a solicitor (the changed the rules quite a long time ago) but it remains rare except in the corporate world. But you don't want to go there.

Sudanpan · « **Reply #11 on:** May 24, 2014, 12:58:57 pm »

My Dad's house dates from 1700's - next door's house is circa 1950's/60's. Looking at the way the houses are it is very likely that the original owners of my Dad's house sold off some of their garden for the next door house to be built. I am pretty sure this would have been after the underground drainage was put in place - ie it was done when all the land was my Dad's house's garden.

Not even sure why the neighbour is itching to divert the pipes etc in the first place - maybe he wants to put in a swimming pool or something!