[SallyintNorth]

The problem is we only usually see 1-2 people a day so if I lived in a high population area it might be different, also I dont have any friends around here who could help me out

You mentioned that you have been attending puppy socialisation classes?  Would any of the people who go there be prepared to meet up and help you?  You could go to somewhere convenient for them, it wouldn't have to be in your home area?

[in the hills]

LG - your pup sounds a bit like mine. Kate is quite shy and reserved and if people approach her she doesn't naturally greet them but is a bit nervous. She wants to say hello but is unsure so barks. Our puppy trainer thinks she will partly grow out of it. I have seen it a lot in working labs. She is also really observant and spots objects at a good distance and will bark at them until she works out what they are. I'm hopeful that a lot will stop when she starts her training.

Could your visitors throw a toy for your collie? Or would that interfere with any training you wish to do in the future? We sometimes ask visitors to throw our pup a biscuit if she is reluctant to eat from their hand and she will go to them afterwards looking for a treat  ::)h

We have used the supermarket to try and help with training but it's too far for us to do very regularly so has been ineffective. Our pup goes days sometimes without seeing anyone and even if I travel to the village we can linger for half an hour and only see 2 or 3 people.

Guide dog pups are well socialised   ...... they have to be! I was friends with a farmers wife who puppy walked and had brood bitches for the Guide Dog Society. She won an award as was one of their longest serving walkers. She was brill and a great source of knowledge about pups and dogs in general. She always had a pup and had dealt with just about everything! No need to feel sad. It's only when they are working that they ask you not to approach/distract the pup ..... just as one might not want a collie or retriever approached or distracted when working. Her dogs often wore similar signs but she would ask certain people at times to fuss her trainees or would say yes when people asked if they could stroke her dogs.

[Old Shep]

Some really good advice in these posts, if you want even more there's a really good facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/reactivedogs/
I would always take this pup out on its own not with any other dogs. Make sure that you have a really nice walking to heel normally, or use a gentle leader type head collar and the dog is not in front of you at any time.  You need to meet any dangers in front of your dog so it knows you will protect it. I think with a rough collie puppy it will be apprehension not aggression.
Is there anywhere you can go where you can see these "dangers" at a distance where your dog won't react? (and just as importantly you won't get "butterflies")?  Then you can practice being calm together.  If your dog is jumping around you are too close - you may need to be 200 yards away!  Once you know what your safe distance is then experiment with what's the best way to calm your dog - stroking, talking, yummy treats, a toy?  Then gradually - VERY gradually over a few weeks try to decrease the distance by using your calming technique.
I read recently any plan to change dog behaviour takes at least 3 weeks of hard work, most people give up after 10 days and call it a failure. (yes I've been guilty of that one!)

[Ladygrey]

The problem is we only usually see 1-2 people a day so if I lived in a high population area it might be different, also I dont have any friends around here who could help me out

You mentioned that you have been attending puppy socialisation classes?  Would any of the people who go there be prepared to meet up and help you?  You could go to somewhere convenient for them, it wouldn't have to be in your home area?

The classes I am attending are ringcraft classes, so the dogs are learning to walk up and down around other dogs, let a stranger (judge) walk up and stroke them etc, Tully LOVES these classes and is full of beans!!

I dont think I could ask any of the people to help me :s its ten miles away from where I live and all of the people are either middle aged or elderly (I have a phobia of people my own age! lol) so I love to talk with them and be with older people
Also I wouldnt be brave enough to ask

[Ladygrey]

Could your visitors throw a toy for your collie? Or would that interfere with any training you wish to do in the future? We sometimes ask visitors to throw our pup a biscuit if she is reluctant to eat from their hand and she will go to them afterwards looking for a treat 

I think if a visitor threw a toy for Tully he would go hyper and love it! but then again he is different inside the house, the only time someone other than me is in the house is on weekends when I get to see my boyfreind, I havnt lived here long and my house is teeny tiny so I get invited around to my old lady freinds but they dont come round to my house! lol

[Ladygrey]

Some really good advice in these posts, if you want even more there's a really good facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/reactivedogs/
I would always take this pup out on its own not with any other dogs. Make sure that you have a really nice walking to heel normally, or use a gentle leader type head collar and the dog is not in front of you at any time.  You need to meet any dangers in front of your dog so it knows you will protect it. I think with a rough collie puppy it will be apprehension not aggression.
Is there anywhere you can go where you can see these "dangers" at a distance where your dog won't react? (and just as importantly you won't get "butterflies")?  Then you can practice being calm together.  If your dog is jumping around you are too close - you may need to be 200 yards away!  Once you know what your safe distance is then experiment with what's the best way to calm your dog - stroking, talking, yummy treats, a toy?  Then gradually - VERY gradually over a few weeks try to decrease the distance by using your calming technique.
I read recently any plan to change dog behaviour takes at least 3 weeks of hard work, most people give up after 10 days and call it a failure. (yes I've been guilty of that one!)

Thanks for the advice!! I suppose I always take both dogs out together... so when Laddie (sheltie) growls under his breath at someone (which he has always done but nothing else) Tully is taking this on and seeing them as scary!

I will try and take Tully places on his own sometimes and maybe this will help

This afternoon as we were walking a builder carrying some scaffolding popped out of a garden, Tully was too close to bark but was terrified and tried to pull backwards out of his lead and run off, very stressed puppy, I kept walking and offered him some treats (which were refused) and when we were past I told him good boy and gave him a treat. but then is this rewarding his fearful behavior?? or is it doing the right thing??

He isnt very food orientated so when he is scared he doesnt want a treat, or am I not meant to treat him when he is scared! im so confused   

Also I met a man walking today, I saw him from 200 yards off but the path was too narrow for both of us at the same time, so when Tully spotted him I called Tully to look at me to distract him but I had to pull him to the side to let the man past us, he barked one or two times but when the man was past and he was quiet I gave him a treat and told him "good boy" was this right??

obvoiusly I couldnt relax when I was holding him as I had to move him out of the way...

Although after that a bicycle went past on the road and I stayed nuetral and ignored it and so did Tully 

[shygirl]

ladygrey - you live in basingstoke? - theres a really ace dog trainer who is (or was) in the romsey / winchester area. shes called patsy parry. its all positive stuff, and i think shes even trained movie star dogs. she does good citizen etc.
she was my trainer for my pup 10 yrs back when we lived down you way. it would be worth a shot.

http://www.apdt.co.uk/dog-owners/local-dog-trainers/hampshire/patsy-parry-bahons

[Ladygrey]

Unfortunately I now live in Stroud! which means I dont know many people and its not the biggest place, mainly hills and umm more hills

[Old Shep]

He isnt very food orientated so when he is scared he doesn't want a treat, or am I not meant to treat him when he is scared! im so confused 



The more you get into dog behavior theories the more confusing it gets!  I went through many behaviorists and read many books trying to get help with my dog reactive setter - and I came to the conclusion no two behaviorists agree! 


Some say don't reward fear, some say give reassurance to fearful dogs.  Don't worry about what you are meant to do - read about options and suggestions and try them out - in the end your dog will tell you what is right for them.  Sorry if this is a bit airy fairy  - but the dog in front of you will usually be the best source of information about what to do. You sound as if you can read your dog well so you will get through this together and have a really good bond because of it.

[doganjo]

I met a man walking today, I saw him from 200 yards off but the path was too narrow for both of us at the same time, so when Tully spotted him I called Tully to look at me to distract him but I had to pull him to the side to let the man past us, he barked one or two times but when the man was past and he was quiet I gave him a treat and told him "good boy" was this right??

Sounds right to me - it worked didn't it? Not sure about the builder though, perhaps you should have not treated at all, and walked on fro a bit, then asked him to come to you and treated then.

Are you going to show Tully or is that the only class available for socialising?

[doganjo]

Just found this if it's of any help - http://www.sacramentodogbehavior.com/6mistakesbmod.htm

[SallyintNorth]

I dont think I could ask any of the people to help me :s its ten miles away from where I live and all of the people are either middle aged or elderly (I have a phobia of people my own age! lol) so I love to talk with them and be with older people

Okay, you love to talk to them.  So talk to them.  Talk about this problem you are having, see if any of them have the same problem, or have had it and found a way to get past it.  Talk to them about how you would like to be able to set up some exercises but haven't anyone nearby to where you are to help.  About how you love the people in this group, how you feel comfortable with them, how you would be happy to travel to somewhere convenient for anyone who could help you with this... are you getting the picture?

Also I wouldnt be brave enough to ask

See above! 

Also I wouldnt be brave enough to ask

And, although I suspect from what you're already doing and saying it won't get this far because you will work through it with Tully - if you don't manage to get it sorted on your own, then it's your decision whether you decide to ask these nice kind older folk for a bit of help or spend the next 10-15 years screwed up with apprehension every time you see something your dog isn't going to like the look of in the distance.  Yes I am being again famously blunt - but I have that T-shirt and I do urge you to find the courage to ask for help if you need it, rather than blight the rest of your time with this dog.  Ask me how I know

[Ladygrey]

Thankyou doganjo I am hoping to show him one day, but I dont mind when and I dont care if I do well or not its just fun to enter

Sally yes I suppose you are right Maybe I will ask someones opinion one day, we are off there tonight but I dont know if I could ask tonight..

Today's walk was really good

instead of turning right out of my lane and along the pavement until I get to the field (which I do the same route 4 times a day) I turned left, and I walked right into town (only 2 miles)
I had Tully on an easyer to handle lead (thinner and lighter) and I set off and didnt let him walk infront of me, well we walked past dogs, men, ladies, bycyles, children everything and he never said a word, we went into the pet shop and bought some treats and said hello to the lady's border collie (which growled and snapped at him) and he was very happy
A little boy ran up to him and hugged him (Laddie hid behind my leg) and he wagged his tail and stood still
then we walked all the way back again

This evening I turned right (my usual way) and a man came running down his driveway in the dark and Tully got a huge fright and as he couldnt run away because of the lead started barking.

So I think I will try alternating the route we go and he is definatly happy and waggy if he is around lots of people and things and he is frightened if there is just one person and they jump out at him
Tomorrow I will do the same and walk him into town

Also I noticed that when Laddie (sheltie) see's another dog he gets all tall and tail goes up over his back even though he doesnt say anything... but Tully then is copying Laddie.. but its going to take me ages to walk them one at a time so maybe I could walk Tully once a day on his own and see how he goes

[doganjo]

its going to take me ages to walk them one at a time so maybe I could walk Tully once a day on his own and see how he goes

You're doing pretty good so far.  I know how it feels to be dog walking a lot of the day.  Because of the type of dog, mine get free running rather than road walking but because my girls don't get on  (Belle has similar fear symptoms to Tully, following attacks, but she's 9 so it's more difficult a problem to solve), I have to do two walks a day. Changing the venue is good because dogs don't relate actions to places, so any improvements have to be reinforced by doing them in different areas. 

For instance, when training a long seek back retrieve, (250 yards)I trained Allez to do it in one field, in a number of lengthening stages, then took him to another field and almost went back to the beginning, although because the commands were clear in his brain it was quicker, and each new field I went to it was quicker still, till eventually the command  'go back' now means 'I'll find a retrieve if I keep on going in a straight line because Mum says so'

[SallyintNorth]

It sounds like you're making great progress - well done