[lord flynn]

its an interesting debate and dilemma Stereo.

Although there's a difference between utility and show birds, at some point a breed falls so far short of the breed standard that they aren't actually that breed any more. I am choosing to not sell hatching eggs from my breeds except to existing breeders or those breeds if they want them. At least then those not good enough will be culled out of the gene pool.It might work with some breeds, but with two of my chosen breeds I don't think the quality (with my SGs and with most everyone's MDs) is good enough at the moment. Its especially true of Marsh Daisies, there are some extremely unscrupulous breeders and sellers around but have also been offered some very dodgy Scots Greys in the last three years.

By the same token though, those that want the breeds they want will go and find them, maybe its better if reputable breeders do make themselves available

[Victorian Farmer]

I'm after utility and nice stock .Cream leg bars fetch good money if the breed is right the best iv seen is a breeder in the borders .The bared rock roads Sussex are very good the mart at Dingwall has more good breeders than ENE were else .Its took me since 2006 to get mine right . I always use best hen and layer to breed .if the stock was not up to a descant standard i would sell them for back gardens and start a gain .IM having time out from march and i intend to do some think else iv done cream lag bar or pingtons roads Sussex am rock bared rock probable a large silki ha vent seen ENE size for ya res .

[Marches Farmer]

I sell at the poultry auction at Hereford Market, every 1st and 3rd Thursday of the month, and also at the rare breed sales at Ross-on-Wye, which are four times a year.  I always test the breeding group for fertility first and only sell if I get a good hatch rate.  I also collect eggs no more than three days before the sale and label them accordingly.  Not everyone has the same approach to fertility, etc., so it's always a big of a lottery if you're buying, but the regulars have got to know my stock is OK and they're getting what it says on the box.  I have sold on eBay in the past and got a good price but have always been concerned about how well the eggs will have fared in the postal system.

[Stereo]

I don't know the science on the fertility of eggs but there seems to be a big emphasis on freshness. Now if a hen raises a clutch of 12 chicks naturally, the oldest egg was 12 days old before she started sitting. So I wonder if it's so critical to get them in the incubator as soon as possible or whether failures are more likely to be down to other things like postal damage, poor incubation etc.

[HesterF]

Bear in mind the hen is a better incubator than anything else on the market! But, yes, point taken, there are loads of other influences on fertility than just age of the eggs.

As for the exhibition stock vs. utility stock vs. rubbish stock debate, it's got to be about finding a bit of a balance. Many rare breeds have been around for hundreds of years without any breed standards until the last century. And many are rare just because they've fallen out of favour. They're even more likely to be endangered if people feel they can't breed them because their stock is not up to it. I have no idea whether any of mine would do well at a show - I've only even been to one show and that was the poultry section of the Kent County Show which is pretty small. All I can do is read the breed standards and ensure that I only breed from those birds that meet the standards (which is why the Cayuga with the odd white feather is going). I do know that every bird I breed that meets the breed standard makes it less likely that that breed will die out - and every hatching egg that I sell may also help.

[hughesy]

Having explained my reasons for no longer selling hatching eggs on ebay here are my thoughts on the show vs. utility vs. mongrel debate. I've decided I'm going to keep just the one breed for now thus reducing the problems associated with keeping several breeds separate. I have four chicken coops and fencing for pens and I'll put this all to work in breeding from my RIR flock. They are pure bred, breed standard birds that I've had for about four years and my plan is to select hem for breeding based on egg laying and quality of eggs. I'm not into showing or any of the chicken snobbery that seems to be popular these days I just want to improve the performance of my flock. The reason I've chosen the RIR is that of the pure bred traditional breeds that I've kept they seem to be the best basis to start from in terms of laying and fertility. I want to continue to keep pure bred birds rather than go the hybrid route which would undoubtably give me more eggs but just isn't cricket really.

[Bodger]

Spot on Hughsey. There shouldn't be but there's a world of difference between a utility bird and a show bird.
 In an ideal world this shouldn't be the case but in the real world, there is and I know which sort I'd rather have.
There's nothing wrong with the hobby of showing chickens but the showman breeds for rosettes and cards in mind  and not for eggs or meat. I endeavor to breed pure breeds for utility and if they look the part as well as act the part, then that's a bonus. There's a big difference.

[lord flynn]

I am not a showing fanatic but the fact remains that without showing, some of our traditional breeds may not have survived their most unfashionable periods. I'm not saying people shouldn't breed if they feel their stock isn't good enough, otherwise how could you improve it?they should just give a second thought as to where that stock ends up if that particular breed is not strong. I am only going on the breeds that I am involved in, I don't presume to talk about any of the others.
and of course, as said, its about balance-no good having a traditional breed that can't do its job. part of the problem is that many chicken breeders, me included, can't breed in the sorts of scale old time producers did anyway.

[Clansman]

I don't know the science on the fertility of eggs but there seems to be a big emphasis on freshness. Now if a hen raises a clutch of 12 chicks naturally, the oldest egg was 12 days old before she started sitting. So I wonder if it's so critical to get them in the incubator as soon as possible or whether failures are more likely to be down to other things like postal damage, poor incubation etc.

Fertility rates actually improve once the eggs are two days old then gradually reduce each day from then on.

at the hatchery I worked in we hatched Cobb broilers and the fertility rate was reckoned to be reduced around 0.3% per day of age (above 2 days)

Once they reached 7 days the fertility rate dropped around 0.5% per day.

We very rarely set eggs much over 10 days old.

[hughesy]

I don't suppose it helps when breeders keep the best birds for their own use but flog off the not so good ones to anyone who'll buy them. The not so good birds are then bred from etc etc. Your only hope when trying to improve your flock for either purpose is to concentrate on your own.

[Stereo]

It's also a matter for most people of actually finding good breeding stock in the first place. It took my months to find a good LS cockerel. I could have bought eggs from a good breeder and picked the best I suppose, but again that's months.

The more I think about it, if I can't find a good CLB cockerel this year, why should I breed from my poorly marked one? The resulting birds will not be brilliant but I'm sure they will look nice and lay blue eggs. Nobody is ever going to show them and if they are poorly bred again, and again, you wont even be able to recognise them as anything. The question is, does the existence of poor examples harm the breed? We can all aspire to pick the best birds and hold the standards but if we can't because we are not quite there yet with the right parent birds, what's wrong with knocking out a few sub standard birds?

[Bodger]

You can have LS that look fantastic but hardly lay an egg and IMO, they're a waste of space. Getting them to fulfill both criteria? Now that's the real trick these days and especially so when many of the old utility strains have disappeared.

[hughesy]

I got rid of my LS for that very reason. They looked fantastic but their laying was below par.

[Bodger]

 

[Stereo]

My LS hens lay like crazy. Is that a good indicator? The cockerel has better markings than them so I was hoping that he would bring better markings to the offspring but they would keep their mum's laying performance. Is that a reasonable assumption / hope? Or is it a case of wait and see.