[plumseverywhere]

 Murphy, our TerrierXSamoyed has suddenly taken to running off and ignoring whistle and voice commands    The fox has made several pathways between the copse that joins ours and our neighbours land and its impossible for me to get in due to it being 100% bramble and very deep. I've tried blocking gaps with all sorts of things but to no avail. Today I woke up to find OH had let the dog out for a wee and of course dog had legged it.  I've been long leading or taking him to the other side of the garden where there are no escape routes and taking lots of treats and whistle with me, whereby he's been fine.
We've had electric collars suggested but I have concerns as I'm aware you need special training to use them? I don't want to affect him in any way as he's already quite a sensitive boy.
I've opted to buy some form of netting/fencing that I can wrap and tie across the brambles to block his entrance but have a feeling that this is only going to be temporary as he'll find another way out.
He's 18 months old, neutered, chipped and usually very good but I guess he's tasted freedom now. Any suggestions please? 

[doganjo]

The only possible way is back to basics training as if he was a puppy but even that is not guaranteed at his age.  I would say your idea of netting to prevent escape is as good as you'll get.  The retraining may take a while and in teh meantime you'll have to keep him restrained anyway as you can't be with him 24/7

An electric collar might work but again he would still have to be restrained with it on and not used for at least 2 to 3 weeks to let him get used to the weight and feel of it before it is used - and in any case it is a negative reprimand system rather than positive training.  High value treats - like chicken, sausage etc, not just ordinary dog treats, might also help.

He's just using his natural terrier instincts to hunt, but needs to be taught his boundaries.

Hope that helps 

[Old Shep]

Hi - you have my sympathy I know this one well!!  After a lot of frustrating "bog-offs" with the setters, the solution for us was fencing. Wall top fencing, secure gates etc.  (We already had dry stone walls but these are too easy to get over).  Could you maybe split your garden so that you can fence in a small secure area? Just for those late night/early morning toilet outings? Other excursions during the day can be your long line training / walks etc

[Bionic]

Hi - you have my sympathy I know this one well!!  After a lot of frustrating "bog-offs" with the setters, the solution for us was fencing. Wall top fencing, secure gates etc.  (We already had dry stone walls but these are too easy to get over).  Could you maybe split your garden so that you can fence in a small secure area? Just for those late night/early morning toilet outings? Other excursions during the day can be your long line training / walks etc

Yep, know this feeling well also. We keep blocking holes too but OH has just had loads of wood delivered (my Christmas present) to make secure gates and fencing. In the meantime, if we aren't with him Archie only goes out to wee on a long lead.

[in the hills]

Back to basics with training and use "temptations" to increase the level of obedience eg. with a gundog you would work on the dog continuing to return to a recall command even though a ball was landing at their side for example. Foxy can be very tempting ... my flattie never really leaves my side but will shoot off in the wood if he picks up fox scent .... some breeds probably even keener than gundogs. Treats may not be enough incentive to return and I would try to up obedience. Try not to let out on his own to reinforce the "habit" and I would limit his "free play" time for a while even when you are out with him ie. make him spend time at heel while you are outside and only play for 10 minutes. Even then keep tighter control than normal eg. 2 minutes play and then a recall, 2 minutes play and then a minute of heel work. Basically reinforce your position as boss/pack leader. If he were mine he would have lost his rights to too much freedom for a while .... just until he remembers his lessons.  Same in the house .... up the obedience at times. Can you do some recalls in a smallish area? Somewhere you can run after Murphy if he turns a deaf ear to a recall. Catch him and correct where he ignored the recall .... NOT when he returns.

A good fenced area makes life easy but still need to correct his behaviour as it could cause problems for you and danger for Murphy when you are out and about.

Totally agree Plums to avoid the electric collar .... can cause more problems than solve them.

Be a good boy Murphy 

[Toe]

I'm not sure about restricting play time... We have never had a major problem with our dogs despite the fact the youngest pointer could clear the fence from standstill if she wanted. I think this is because they know they have a good walk every day where they can run around, explore and go hunting. The only time one has wandered out through the gate has been when they haven't had their daily walk - I guess they get bored and are tempted by the wider world! I would make sure Murphy expends loads of energy when he is with you, safely, and then perhaps he will be less inclined to be so mischevious!

[plumseverywhere]

Thank you. Helpful replies (as always) - will sort out fencing to go across the front of the bramble area and yes, long lining him not letting him free.
I have a pocket full of cheese and liver bits and we've just filled the hay nets with him not leaving my side because he knew there was good stuff to be had - hopefully the positive reinforcement will help.
A few days back as I was filling the chicken feeders, he spotted a fox lurking within a few feet of me and he chased it away (using his little bramble bush exit) so I think the fox is definitely something to do with his obsession with that area of the garden!
Neighbours are bound to lose their temper soon, I think a visit with a bottle of homemade wine and an apology with the footnote "we are trying to sort it" is in order   

[doganjo]

I'm not sure about restricting play time... We have never had a major problem with our dogs despite the fact the youngest pointer could clear the fence from standstill if she wanted. I think this is because they know they have a good walk every day where they can run around, explore and go hunting. The only time one has wandered out through the gate has been when they haven't had their daily walk - I guess they get bored and are tempted by the wider world! I would make sure Murphy expends loads of energy when he is with you, safely, and then perhaps he will be less inclined to be so mischevious!

I have pointers too (Hunter pointer retrievers to be precise)  regardless of how much play time/free running/exercise they'd had they'd still head off hunting even if they were on their last legs - except that they have been trained to recall.  Hunting is instinctive in working lines.  If you have a pointer that works closer than gun range it's either been well trained from a baby puppy or has little work instinct.  Some breeds are better than others, or have less hunt drive.  Mine are over endowed with hunt drive so I do basic obedience every day as well as their free running in an enclosed space.(enclosed is a bit of an exaggeration - we're talking multiple acres of scrub-land where you can hardly see in front of your legs.)
As to two minutes off then recall - mine would be half a mile away by that time.  I do 10 seconds off then recall and treat with ham,, chicken, rabbit, sausage - varying it as they also get bored, then give the 'go play' command, and repeat as I walk through the field.  On the way back to the gate they are given the final go play command and I wait for them to return to the car for the tastiest treat or to be sent for a retrieve- they know the routine and only finding game and going on a hard point will stop them.

[SallyintNorth]

I would echo that the first thing is to make sure he is getting plenty of exercise.  A young dog like that needs a good hour, minimum, running around off lead (where safe) on a proper walk every day.  By 'a proper walk' I mean taking him out for a walk, not just letting him run around with you while you do stuff around the holding.  And on the walk, if he's not entertaining himself (safely and under control) then you need to be entertaining him - throwing sticks, doing bits of obedience and other games that stimulate his mind as well as exercise his legs, heart and lungs. 

I often hear people say, "Oh, he gets loads of exercise - he's got X acres to run around in," and am always distressed by it.  Even when there are two dogs, who will to an extent exercise each other, they still need to be taken out for proper walks.

I take Annie's point that certain dogs of certain working breeds will find the energy to 'work' come what may and however much 'proper exercise' they've had that day - but it's a fact that any dog is much much much more likely to run off if it hasn't had a good proper walk that day.

[plumseverywhere]

Good point there Sally. The times he escapes are first thing in the morning if someone lets him out for a wee (I've told them not to as I take him to other side of the garden for that and he never legs it). One he's had his walks his much less inclined to run off.
I usually take him around our orchard as I'm nervous of his recall and at least that way he gets off lead running time. The other place where I could walk him has dexter cattle and although others take their dogs there off lead, i'm not keen to until the cattle go again. Maybe murphy is bored of his usual walk? I do take toys for him to fetch and I play hide and seek etc.

[SallyintNorth]

Bored sounds possible, especially if he's not getting one of his usual runabouts. 

Can you make games of some obedience exercises?  And/or learn some new ones.  My dogs used to love to play 'Seek back' (you drop an item as you walk, then send the dog back for it), 'Find it' (finding a ball lost in long grass - start by making the dog sit and stay while you throw it so it doesn't know exactly where it is, then start to walk away from the dog and throw the ball out of its eyesight but where it can see the direction in which you threw, then throw it over a hedge, etc.)

The other thing I used to do with mine was fetching sticks out of running water - it's great exercise.

[plumseverywhere]

We're just off to see if the cows are there, if not he'll get a walk on the bank.  He's a bit (how can I say this politely...) thick  dense  um, not very good at those sorts of games. If I throw something and he can't see where it went, he just looks at me "DOH?!" and then gives up.   And to cap it all, he's scared of water    yes, walks with murphy are challenging....

[SallyintNorth]

lol, maybe start another thread to ask for suggestions for games for the mentally challenged dog?    Bless him 

[in the hills]

ISorry, perhaps I didn't explain that very well. I didn't mean that exercise was not important. Of course it is .... whether old or young. Some breeds as I said are probably more inclined to give chase than others and in my opinion it is therefore more important to have a really good recall and control on these dogs. If a dog ignores a recall and goes off chasing then you and dog could be in big trouble. Fencing your land may help but is not a solution if you expect to be able to exercise your dog off lead anywhere else. As Doganjo says about her breed, some breeds are virtually impossible to "tire out". Our Flat coats never tire as young dogs and are constantly on the go. You could walk all day everyday and they would still be up for more. In fact more exercise, more stamina, more active .... athletes. Okay, maybe not 2 minutes, but you are doing a similar thing Doganjo. Watch your dog. Recall initially in a distance that you think they will obey the command .... 30 seconds, 2 minutes, however long after your play command. You work out the time by watching your dog and by knowing him. It's about keeping them busy "mentally" and not just physically. I can only really talk about retrievers because that is what I know but a lot can't be tired just by exercise .... they are walked 3 times a day as well as being outdoors while we do "jobs" .... they need mental stimulation.

I don't think restricting exercise for a short period while you regain control would hurt any dog .... it's for a short time and in the long run that dog may get far more exercise because it is a dog that can be trusted off lead. I know that is more difficult with some breeds than others but think it's something to work towards. Meanwhile the mental stimulation of "training" will help to satisfy and tire a young dog. They are still being walked 3 or 4 times a day but not being allowed to do their own thing quite as much but listening to their owner and maybe enjoying that contact too. I think dogs respond better when they are kept closer to their owner .... further away more likely to disobey .... I'd want a young dog who was not recalling to be close by until I'd sorted the problem.

Most young dogs develop "problems" that need to be sorted. Their attention and focus needs to be you and so restricting "free play" for a short time often helps. Young gundogs of that age would also be retrieving to tire them out mentally and physically and other working breeds doing whatever they do. Does Murphy retrieve? Like agility? It's not all about tedious strict control but fun.

Ahhhh cross posted with last few posts. Then does he enjoy obedience or what do they do when training terriers? DOH ...... don't know anything about your mix of breeds .... controlled chasing of pretend bunny on a string ?? 

[plumseverywhere]

I've managed to find a way (so far) of breaking his determined "I'm going to leg it through the brambles " streak. It involves a whistle, stilton and closely watching what his next move might be...as he starts to run I interupt by a whistle and 'here murph' and he stops and comes to me. So long as I can keep his attention (either by throwing a ball or talking to him or reminding him that my pocket is full of nice things) then I seem to be able to stop that streak away.
I think it was OH's "open the door and let the dog out" that led to murphy's habit of straying further afield. He definitely needs to have his mind kept busy which I'm more than happy to do.