[shygirl]

would neuteriing an 8 yr old dog reduce his aggression over food? or is he too old and set in his ways?

he is a lhaso apso and always starting fights over food and sometimes affection. his growls used to set off my terrier into a fight but since the terrier has been neutered (he was a pup) the terrier is 99% mellow.
the lhaso just started another fight today and bit into my shoe/foot really aggressively and im sure it wasnt mistaken for a dog, he then went on to fight my labarador. - usually its dog-on-dog aggression but my son does have a scar from a fight years ago.

usually we feed separately but hes a disobedient bugger at times who can shoot through your legs and get into the wrong room at feeding time.

since a bad fight on the beach whilst walking this spring with my other dog - (i came off worse then aswell,) he has mainly stayed on the farm. so if neutering would work at his age, it would maybe be beneficial in that he could come out on country walks again.

or maybe 8 yrs old is too late to change his behaviour by neutering?


my friends lhaso lived til 18 so thought of 10 more years of separating dogs isnt too good. 

[SallyintNorth]

If it was just aggression over food, I'd have said probably not.

But you say he's aggressive with other dogs out on walks too.

I had a dog I would have neutered at 18 months but my vet at the time talked me out of it.  Much later in his life, after a friend had looked after for him several times when I was away, he had become much much worse so I decided to get him neutered then.  He would have been about 8 then, I think.  The vet warned me it may have little effect and any benefit it did have would take time to come into effect.

He was quite a bit calmer relatively quickly, but you still had to watch him and 'manage the situation' when there were other male dogs around.  However, 12 months after the op, he had become much less likely to be aggressive with other male dogs, and indeed he even made friends with another older dog.  (What a picture the two of them made, Moses was by then arthritic and swayed side-to-side as he walked; the other dog was a Dobermann, also arthritic, and rocked in a vertical plane as he walked.   )

So it could be worth doing, but don't expect an overnight miracle.

Oh, and if anyone suggests you try an anti-testosterone jag "to see what he'll be like" - be warned, it doesn't necessarily have the same effect at all.  I had tried that with Moses at an earlier stage, and it just made him lethargic, dopey, unhappy.  The op didn't have any of those effects.

[Alistair]

My males are neutered, one still has issues with other male dogs and he was done at 8monthz old, the general consensus is that it does calm them down but as sallyintnorth notes it's by no means instant

It sounds like he needs a good talking to. Is it worth introducing a command which you use as a stop it thing, so as soon as he even looks like he's thinking about doing something you shout to divert his behaviour and then praise really heavily if he doesn't do the thing you don't want him to? Or muzzle him until he learns that he can't start a fight? That way if he does start he can't do any damage (use a softy muzzle)?

[shygirl]

the trouble is he starts the fights but cant finish them and ends up getting hammered. he is the opposite of parrot mouthed 
he nearly lost his eye earlier this year by getting bitten. but 99.9% he is the one who starts it by growling. i know lhaso apsos are alert dogs and on the beach he will sit and growl / bark from a distance at other dogs. but my terrier sees that as an invitation to fight so we cant take them out together anymore.

the only time he has bitten another dog is over food  or affection (hes v jealous), as in general - loose or on the lead he isnt aggressive - more vocal.
the anyway it could have been my kids foot he bit today so enough is enough.

[doganjo]

Castrating after one year old will have no effect whatsoever on aggression.  Sorry but it's been tried and doesn't work.  What you need to do is find a dog behaviourist.  If you were in Central Scotland I could recommend one.

[little blue]

excuse the crudeness, but as our vet says, "you're operating on his balls, not his brain" - i.e. there's more at play than just testosterone production!

[jaykay]

No to neutering. But read a book called 'Mine!' by Jean Donaldson - there's a kindle version too. It's all about possessive aggression, including over food.

Daisy, my rescue retriever, had me pinned against the wall, and bit me several times, over panicky possessive aggression regarding both toys and food, in the first couple of weeks

I followed all the advice in the book carefully and these days I can walk up, say 'can I have this?' and take whatever away from her, including her food bowl or a chew.

Took some work but it was worth the effort.

[Old Shep]

There's no guarantees that neutering will help but its a small op so its worth a go.


Dog to dog food guarding is natural, so just always always feed separately.  However it sounds as if he has little dog syndrome, and needs a bit of reining in.  I'm not a punishment type dog trainer - quite the reverse, but if one of mine bit me they would certainly know about it afterwards!  Talk about bite the hand that feeds you!  And pushing through doorways??  Think you've got some training to do and take no more nonsense from this dog.

[SallyintNorth]

Castrating after one year old will have no effect whatsoever on aggression.  Sorry but it's been tried and doesn't work.  What you need to do is find a dog behaviourist.  If you were in Central Scotland I could recommend one.

How it was explained to me was that if the aggression is male / testosterone - related, then it will be affected by the amount of testosterone in the dog's system.  Of course there's also an element of habit.

Dogs create testosterone primarily in the testes but also in the adrenal glands.  In castrating an older dog, if he produces any amount of testosterone in the adrenal glands then castration will have limited or no effect.  However, some dogs produce little or none in the adrenals, in which case castration would still have an effect, but would take time to evidence.

As well as the older dog I had castrated to curb his male aggression, which I wrote about earlier, and in whom there was definitely an effect, albeit slow to come about, I had also had a collie dog castrated on medical grounds at around 6 years of age.  He's never been aggressive to other male dogs per se, but there has been a noticeable reduction in his male behaviours over time since the op, now a couple of years ago.

I agree that, if you haven't tried already, a dog behaviourist could be a good thing to try.

[funkyfish]

Resource aggression is usually down to stress and frustration.  You need to find a qualified behaviourist I your area. If you let me know where you are I will try and find one for you. Anyone can call themselves a behaviourist and some have no idea What they're doing and can do more harm than good.

[shygirl]

does anyone recommend a behaviourist in aberdeenshire?

im still having trouble with this dog. he is more than happy to bite humans if they get in the way of a fight, he bit my son twice today and not accidentally. he started the fight over a piece of dropped food, we separated them 3 times but he went back for more 3 times (it was hard to grab hold of them) then he turned on my son in temper and bite him twice.

i dont think he likes any of our dogs and i sometimes feel like he doesnt like living with us at all. he is really the odd dog out as my others are working dogs (gsd, lab and terrier) and this one isnt on their wavelength at all. (he was inherited)
sometimes i wonder whether i should re-home him as he doesnt like living in a multi-dog household and would be happy as larry if he had the house and couch and owner to himself. but i wouldnt like for a kiddy to get bitten as he is repeatedly predictably aggressive.

as i say he is predictable so manageable but i still think about whether its acceptable to keep a dog that has repeatedly bitten me and my son.

[doganjo]

Re-home him and you pass the problem on.  If he so aggressive and you can't stop him attacking people then he is beyond saving.  I have experience and it is heartbreaking.  We tried retraining, both the dog and the owners, and it was working very well; but then his owners made one mistake - gave the dog a bone then let their little girl jump down to him unannounced. She got bitten, I had the job of killing a dog I bred and loved.

Either get solid advice now,or put him down.  Next time he could really hurt your son.

[in the hills]

Is he biting anything/ anyone that is close because he is in a state of sort of frenzy with the other dog and not realising what he is doing? ....... so worked up that he doesn't realise for that short moment of time.

Or is he biting in a deliberate way?

Not sure if I am expressing that very well .... do you get me?

can't recommend anyone near you but find someone quickly and get some advice. Guess someone not attached emotionally needs to observe your dog.

Doganjo  .

Really difficult but even though I love dogs with a passion, human safety must come first. Not had to deal with a truly aggressive dog and not sure how much can be achieved by training them.  .... or will that trait come to the front when the dog is pushed/ pressure put on in some way or in certain situations. He needs to know that you and your son are the boss but not sure if you can even then trust a dog that is prepared to bite.

He may appear predictable and so manageable but not sure that's good enough when there is a child in the house. Situations may occur when you are not around or his behaviour patterns could change.

 

[cans]

Shygirl,
You have a tough decision to make and it needs to be made soon.   You cant be watching the laso all the time.  Your family safety has to  come first.   

[shygirl]

- usually its over a piece of food, he demands it is his - growls and will attack the lab or the terrier for it. the lab takes alot to boil over but will hold his ground and it will be over in a minute, but the terrier and the lhaso would fight allday if they had the chance, and they have never been separated during a fight except by force. i fear they would fight when im not around and fight til death. although they share a conversatory whilst im out - they dont have access to food unless im home, and then they get fed separately.

- he is incredibly jealous if anyone strokes the labrador, he will growl and bark (with his tail wagging but stiff and upright?) and try and get between the lab and the person stroking him. the lab is a jessie so will move away from conflict. there was a nasty situation where he attacked the lab when my baby was sitting nearby and she very nearly got caught in the middle - my son still has the scars from protecting his sister. that was 6 yrs ago so this isnt a new situation.

the gsd bitch (spayed) never has a problem with anyone as she is queen bee and takes no-nonsense. she isnt a fighter but would tell them off if needed and everyone accepts she is the boss.

if you have separated him from fighting he will turn and bite the person holding him, and im sure he knows what he is doing. none of the other dogs would dare bite in this situation, not even the terrier. he has bitten my feet/shoes before and tried to shake them and i dont believe it was an accident as the other dog wasnt nearby. it does take 2 people to separate the dogs during a fight as they both want more, especially the lhaso.
the terrier does try to geniunely play with the lhaso on a normal day but the lhaso just hates him. i never see any teeth baring just growls and full-on fight.

he would also bite if you were grooming him between his backlegs but that is controllable and he does have a slight excuse as a groomer did once cut his balls with the clippers.

my kids are getting old enough to stay at home unsupervised and i wouldnt like them to be in a situation of having to separate the dogs, as the trigger is something as simple as dropping a piece of food on the floor. so the lhaso isnt allowed in the house at all if im not there.

i think over the 8.5 yrs of his life he has bitten a human 10 - 15 times. my other dogs have bitten zero times in their combined ages of 20 yrs. how many chances do you give? really?

things have definitely got worse since the terrier came to live with us as they almost equal in size but the lhaso thinks he is superior. yes, the terrier is everyones favourite which is maybe hard to take (do dogs know things like this?)
although my dogs have started fighting with each other on the beach neither have ever had a fight with any other dog. the beach fight was through jealously of affection (the terrier was on a lead, the lhaso was loose) but got really nasty as i couldnt separate them properly and i got bitten again.

i would feel awful about putting a healthy dog to sleep, especially as he was my mothers dog, but we can easily have 3 fights a week. the thing is, i dont think he is a happy dog. he doesnt like the new terrier (hes been here 14mths now), he doesnt like the fact that hes not allowed full range of the house 24/7, or allowed to sit on the couch etc so maybe he would be happier living with someone else where he can be pampered. when we go for off-lead walks around the farm he rarely comes with us anymore, prefering to stay near the house.

i would consider a muzzle but im worried that a fight may occur and he wont be able to defend himself.
i think i will phone the vet tomorrow for his opinion on neutering.

he doesnt bite humans in any other scenario - he likes being stroked, he likes doing tricks for treats etc.hes good on the lead, doesnt run away, is house-trained, fine with cats, likes car journeys etc. he would kill poultry if he had a chance tho.
does anyone want to offer him home?
i am geniunely worried a) the kids will get bitten and b) i will come home and find him ripped to pieces after a fight started whilst i wasnt around.