[pgkevet]

I always reckoned on it taking me 2-3 years to improve my soil (from being meadow) and last year turned in a good several tons of rotted horse dung, wood chippings and assorted vegetable matter.
Potatoes, Pulses, Brassicas, Carrots, Sweetcorn, Squashes, Physallis - all grew brilliantly and way way more than I needed so i was giving surplus away to anyone that wanted it.
BUT my onions, leeks and parsnips are still worthless.

I can't find any obvious info on specific nutrient requirements.. Thnking of soil analysis unless anyone has an idea? Nigbours a mile away get excellent crops of those - but my spuds were better than theirs.

I've tried onion sets, seeds and transplants and the transplants and leek seedlings grown in potting compost were superb prior to planting out..then they just sat there staying similar size/growing very very slowly. Parsnips were sown at the same time as carrots..and the carrots are huge, parnsips half the carrot size!

It's got to be some micronutrient/mineral issue but I can find nothing on the web ...

[Fleecewife]

When did you sow the parsnips, leeks and onions?  They all take a long time to mature, and parsnips in particular and leeks less so may not be ready until later in the year.   I have had consistently poor performance from parsnips for the past three years because the ground wasn't workable until too late in Spring.  Parsnips don't like being transplanted although leeks seem to love it.
 
That first apparent standing still after planting out is in fact hiding some frantic root growth below ground - a bit like a duck paddling like mad, but from the surface all seems serene.

[Greenerlife]

I was very excited to dig up my beautiful looking parsnips a couple of days ago.  Despite having two foot high leaves, and the top of the parsnip looking 2-3 inches wide, they were only about 1 inch deep!  Complete waste of time and space. 

[Dans]

If I remember rightly you need to 'bank up' leeks to keep the light out, so the soil level gets higher. It's only what is covered by soil that will be white. I have also been told that toilet paper rolls can work when you can't bank.

Dans

[pgkevet]

When did you sow the parsnips, leeks and onions?  They all take a long time to mature, and parsnips in particular and leeks less so may not be ready until later in the year.   I have had consistently poor performance from parsnips for the past three years because the ground wasn't workable until too late in Spring.  Parsnips don't like being transplanted although leeks seem to love it.
 
That first apparent standing still after planting out is in fact hiding some frantic root growth below ground - a bit like a duck paddling like mad, but from the surface all seems serene.

I sowed onions and leeks  periodically in modules in the greenhouse as early as february.. every couple of weeks. (I'm still experimneting here) but the best leek seedlings for transpant were sown April in deep pots in the greenhouse..lovely thick pencil stems and 10 inch roots on them that obviously had to be trimmed when dibbled and watered into the outside plot end May. parsnip and carrot seeds directly sown around mid to end may (this is mid wales 600 feet up on my valley floor). Direct sown onions came up and faded. Onion transplants just not growing long foliage or bulking up... just look like large spring onions.

Spring onions in pots in the greenhouse do well but that's in B&Q multipurpose

Folk in the village Pub tell me they have an exceptional season for onions and parsnips - do nothing but add some cow slurry to their land....

This plot I;m using was meadow hay... a good mix of grasses and local flowers ..just cut annually but never fertilized or limed. pH only slightly acid, good deep soil so we're not talking raised beds here and just to remind it was thoroughly rotted  horse manured and my own wood shreddings

[MAK]

That's a shame after all your hard work.
My onion bed is the first to be turned over and thus left a few months, firmed down, rakedfirmed down,raked etc. I plant sets in Feb/March after manure in the autumn. I need to use a dibber and sometimes re-set the onions if they are moved out by birds or small animals. Keep weeding.
Leeks - probabley the same as you plant them but I also cut the leaves back when cutting the roots to plant. I will cut the leaves twice more to thicken up the leeks - I do plant them with a large dibber but don't bank them up. I hate preparing leeks when there is soil between the leaves.
Parsnips - well they are a slow crop so maybe leave them a bit. My trouble is digging them up - too big !   

[Fleecewife]

A couple of things I can think of.  I live even higher than you, but I wouldn't leave parsnips until May to sow.  They really have to go in in March at the latest to have time to grow to any size by the winter.   You would have to sow them under a cloche or similar.
 
As your plot is a ploughed-up meadow, I wonder if you have a plague of cutworms in there (I think it's cut worms - big squishy grey things, from moths)  Whatever they are, they are found in recently ploughed up pasture and live just below the surface, feasting away on the roots of your seedlings and plants until they fade away or keel over.   The only two ways I know of to get rid of them is a) to hunt for them and feed them to the hens, or b) sow a sacrificial crop of mustard which they will feast on then fly away to find some permanent grass to lay their next eggs in.   It may not be that but it's worth a fossick around near the roots.
 
 
For leeks, I make a deep hole with a broom handle then drop in the plants and leave them to it - however, I'm doing something wrong too, because my last year's crop grew quite big but then suddenly flowered before they were quite ready to eat.  Looking on the bright side, they make lovely and enormous flower heads, great for pollinators 
 
When you say 'my own wood shreddings', do you mean used in the stable, or applied directly to the ground?   Wood will rob nitrogen from the soil in order to rot so needs time to rot down away from the ground, with a nitrogen rich additive such as urine.  If it's in the horse manure and it's rotted for a while then this should be enough.
 
I feel your pain with your leek seedlings - they sound perfect 

[pgkevet]

When you say 'my own wood shreddings', do you mean used in the stable, or applied directly to the ground?   Wood will rob nitrogen from the soil in order to rot so needs time to rot down away from the ground, with a nitrogen rich additive such as urine.  If it's in the horse manure and it's rotted for a while then this should be enough.

I prepared 2 x 1/4 acre ploughed areas for my growing with the plan to alternate which is used each year and within each plot the veggies are roatted as to where they're grown. The patch used this year had the horse manure and woodchip. The horse manure from my neighbour was from a  heap rotted many years and a few inches depth all over ploughed and rotorvated in. The woodchip was a relatively small pile about a year old when it was ploughed in the previous autumn mixed with the dung. I'm aware of the nitrogen drop theory but that makes no sense here where other crops did so well.

I do see scattered may-bug larvae and see ocassional wireworm in potatoes but the only obvious diseases on the outdoor stuff is autumn mildew (late sown early peas - need to change variety for later sowings) and the cabbage white caterpillar issue.

Since the horse dung came from grass in the adjacent field i was thinking more in terms of  some trace mineral deficiency affceting onions/leeks but can;t find anything searching the web that points to a specific. Soil analysis for that sort of thing needs to have a pointer to test for or would be way expensive.

My reading also suggested that onions don't need a particularly high N.

Next years plot has had some chippings ploughed in last year, no horse dung but did get a light dressing of rotted cow-dung this summer (no access to more horse, sadly) but also all the chicken bedding waste from our dozen chooks.  I plan to chip in / plough all this years autumn prunings but add all the winter woodburner ash (residue from 10 tons logs) on top to rotorvate and then throw in a nitrogen based fertilizer to balance things come growing time.

[Fleecewife]

<<<Since the horse dung came from grass in the adjacent field...>>>
 
Amino Pyralid residue damage?   I have experienced this in tomatoes and beans and I don't know if it would affect the plants you are concerned about.  Hateful stuff - gets everywhere.  Worth a check?
 
 
Other than that, see how the changes you are making work for next year - and let us know 

[pgkevet]

Now that's the sort of lateral thinking I was after - even had to go look it up . BUT that would a) affect broad leaves and they were fine b) the neighbour wasn't one to have sprayed anything on his pasture and it was last limed some 10 years ago. As far as I'm aware none of his horses was on any long term meds - just the routine anthelmintic regimes and only 3 horses.

I'm waiting for a call-back from a soil analysis company ..hopefuly they will have contact with an agri college or the like that might have some inspiration.

To my theory - if the information is out there - it should be possible to make  good assessment of soil mineral compositions/ weather patterns just from the wild plants established in hedgerows and  field edges. Example: it's noteworthy that there's no field poppies or cornflowers within many miles of my place. O the other hand i have really superb numbers of common purple pyramidal orchids in my meadows and the roadsides are heavy in wild white garlic.

[HesterF]

Can't be much help on the nutritional stuff but I've never had any luck with onion seeds. It's more expensive but have you tried onions from sets sown in autumn. I've just planted mine for next year (along with garlic) after it worked so well with the same last year. They did very little over winter but did have a head start come spring.

Leeks, yes, dump them in a trench and just water them well within the trench - no need to fill it, it'll gradually fill in naturally and then you can earth up too.

Parsnip I believe is tough to germinate. I've just dug my first ever parsnip up - or rather only half of it because it was enormous but not very beautiful. I did have to sow twice and my first sowing was early March. Then filled in the gaps later but they're much smaller now.

H

[Ina]

From what I remember being taught, I wouldn't plant onions into recently manured land - as you said, they don't wan t a lot of N. They always did well for me after potatoes or such, which had a lot of muck the year before, but used most of it. So they might just do better the second year.

[pgkevet]

From what I remember being taught, I wouldn't plant onions into recently manured land - as you said, they don't wan t a lot of N. They always did well for me after potatoes or such, which had a lot of muck the year before, but used most of it. So they might just do better the second year.

That might make simple sense..could apply to the parsnips too if they're doing so well for nutrition that they cant be bothered to root deep?

As for autumn planted onions. That doesnlt really suit the way i manage alternating the 2 plots. A few garlic is one thing but several (20 metre) rows of a late maturing crop ties up the previous years plot from the viewpoint of weedkilling and improvement/ploughing. This is, and will be, very seedy weedy ground as ex meadow. Sets have to be netted until well rooted too or the crows just pull the lot up here.. same with my pea/bean sowings. I learned that the hard way.

I may stick some sets in early spring but the cost for my failures is annoying...perhap i should think longer term and grow my own sets..

Parsnips germination: My first sowing this year failed which is one reason why they were late. I was following readingon web suggesting 3 seeds every few inches. for the second sowing it was just a pretty dense sowing along 2 x 20m rows and then plenty of thinning. same with the carrots -  alot of seed numbers for the root numbers But they area  cheap seed.

I did sow sping onions this time last year in tubs - first in the big greenhouse then took them out while that was disinfected for it's winter break. And put them back in early february for an early crop.

Stuff that can be germinated in pots or modules gets moved around a lot here. usually start them off n conservatory and kitchen windowsills then move them either to the small cold greenhouse or the little spare space in my citrus house (just kept above freezing or leccy costs too much).  But the humidity gets a bit high there so care with anything that might damp-off. First crop peas/beans/sweetcorn does well like that.

[cloddopper]

When did you sow the parsnips, leeks and onions?  They all take a long time to mature, and parsnips in particular and leeks less so may not be ready until later in the year.   I have had consistently poor performance from parsnips for the past three years because the ground wasn't workable until too late in Spring.  Parsnips don't like being transplanted although leeks seem to love it.
 
That first apparent standing still after planting out is in fact hiding some frantic root growth below ground - a bit like a duck paddling like mad, but from the surface all seems serene.

I sowed onions and leeks  periodically in modules in the greenhouse as early as february.. every couple of weeks. (I'm still experimneting here) but the best leek seedlings for transpant were sown April in deep pots in the greenhouse..lovely thick pencil stems and 10 inch roots on them that obviously had to be trimmed when dibbled and watered into the outside plot end May. parsnip and carrot seeds directly sown around mid to end may (this is mid wales 600 feet up on my valley floor). Direct sown onions came up and faded. Onion transplants just not growing long foliage or bulking up... just look like large spring onions.

Spring onions in pots in the greenhouse do well but that's in B&Q multipurpose

Folk in the village Pub tell me they have an exceptional season for onions and parsnips - do nothing but add some cow slurry to their land....

This plot I;m using was meadow hay... a good mix of grasses and local flowers ..just cut annually but never fertilized or limed. pH only slightly acid, good deep soil so we're not talking raised beds here and just to remind it was thoroughly rotted  horse manured and my own wood shreddings

 It sounds as the reason your ground was meadow grazing is that it will not usually support any other growth.

 How far can you dig down , is it grey sticky clay , does it drain well. ( dig a one foot square hole about two feet deep and fill it with water and see how long it takes to completely empty .
 
Can you take and post photos of the hole and the spoil out of it ??
 A picture is worth a thousand words etc.
Straw'ed cow muck is a good way of introducing acid and phosphates to clay / poor soil .

 Byre'd bullocks on straw give an even better acidic manure
 Horse muck is not quite so acidic as their digestion system is quite different.

I use my deep high raised beds and grow 3 foot long sweet tender parsnips ..the secret lies in the soil .. slightly acid plenty of humus and free draining .. can you grow nettles on it ?  If you can grow nettles galore on the land then the soil is at the ideal acidic level  for most fruit & veg . You mentioned locals using cow slurry .. that's a good reason for using it.

 Wood shavings , coarse sawdust and wood chip can delay the amount of nitrogen available for your plants it can take over six years or more for a high wood content based manure to have rotted enough to stop consuming the nitrogen from the dung and urine  and actually start producing it ( nitrogen ) for the plants to use

 When composted stable muck high in wood is left in big heaps for several years it may  not have broken the wood down enough unless it has been well turned and wetted to get the rot going  , instead it often just  becomes desiccated or anaerobically preserved  wood holding some nutrients instead . ( I think I've said what I mean ) 

[devonlad]

Like you some veg just don't seem to do well here. Carrots, potatoes and parsnips always seem to disappoint and take up space for little return. have tried to put it right for years but still no joy and have come to assume that for some inexplicable reason either the soil or site or me!!! just can't grow them. on the other hand onions, peas, beans (runner and broad) sweetcorn and beetroot always deliver. have begun phasing out those things that never do well. my friend up the road is a keen gardener and between us we have started pooling our harvests. he always has fantastic carrots and spuds but just cant grow a good crop of peas or beetroot. between us we grow to our strengths and swap the proceeds. saves wasting space and time.