[cloddopper]

There is a trainer in West Wales somewhere near Fishguard

a couple of years ago we spent a delightful afternoon there watching them give  tourists ( me included even though I live here ) a sheep dog demo using several of their trained dogs  .

 They reckoned not to bother training till the dog was over a year old but to let the pup run along side the working dogs for a wee while & watch how the dog reacted when other trained dogs moved the sheep to commands . The dog was then put in the kennel for a while to " cool down and think over what it had learnt "

 It seems that the trainee sheep dog is quicker and better at picking up training this way than you endlessly plodding over land to show the dog what you want or shouting your self silly for hours on end.

 Same with the whistle it's easier for a young dog to follow a fully trained one and under stand what required to the different calls.
 I've spent hours and hours , " walking it out"  when training  my gundogs, till one day I had two to work with , one fully trained and one a keen pup of 16 weeks old.
after that I always used a fully trained gundog as the tutor example .

[SallyintNorth]

I can vouch that they learn from watching an 'elder'.  When my older boy Skip goes away contract lambing (my BIL borrows him for a few weeks every year), it leaves me and youngster Dot to do all the work back here.  Every year I am amazed when Dot 'just knows' how to do jobs that hitherto I always sent Skip to do, because he was the dog knew how to do it.  Dot being Dot, and very much her own dog, she does it Dottie's way, but in truth that's often an improvement - and does really demonstrate that she's understanding the job, not just the actions.

I remain in total awe of a collie dog's intelligence, application, loyalty and work ethic.

[Backinwellies]

If only I had an elder!  Well I have but he isn't a sheep dog!