[Hillview Farm]

What are peoples opinions on putting this years ewe lambs to the tup?

If you do, how much should they weigh/how big? Experiences? Good mothers or poor?

Good or bad points, Just interested

[Rosemary]

I've always waited until they are gimmers before first tupping - BUT I have two huge single ewe lambs thsi year and am thinking about tupping them this year.

Problem is that my tup is their father, so I'd need to find another tup for the two of them. But I have a plan for that 

I think there are pros and cons - feeding can be awkward because you want to keep the pregnant ewe lamb growing herself but not overfeed the unborn lamb, especially if it's a single. There's a school of thought that lambed as a ewe hogg, they make better mothers although maybe not first time round - if they have twins, some shepherds will take one off and leave her with one only.

I wouldn't consider tupping the twin ewe lambs but these two big singles...

[Sandyknox]

What age would the lambs be you are thinking of running with the tup ?

[mowhaugh]

We do put some of our larger cross bred ewe lambs to the tup, accepting that the scanning percentage will be much lower than with fully mature sheep.  They are tupped as a separate group.  If I can work out how to add an attachment, this is quite an interesting magazine article which was in the RBST magazine a few years back.

[bigchicken]

I think someone said that if they are two thirds of there potential weight it is possible to put them to the tip, I keep Shetlands which are slow growing so I put them to the tup as glimmers.

[Victorian Farmer]

I would never put ewe lambs to tup first ye re lambs i breed Lieyn  I dint sell till I've had them looked at by a good breeder i then  pic the best 20 and sell the rest .The flok I keep at 200 and 5 spares .The rams I use is the best I can get. I had the first prize ram from thainstone and 1 from the ram sale buithwells I pay just over 1000 for the rams .I then get top price when I sell .I have orders from cumbria each Ya re so  that helps. I bred 330 lambs but lost a fuew in the storms in march .

[Azzdodd]

I tupped 3 big ewe lambs few years back to a small ram....all raised twins easy most commercial sheep mature so fast these days they can take it....just use a small ram to make lambing easy

[SallyintNorth]

The RBST article is good as far as it goes but it is rather specific to the context of meat breeds on good pasture in a mild climate, lambing indoors.  It mentions only in passing that ewe lambs - or in fact, first time lambers generally - are rather prone to get up and walk away from their lamb(s), whereas this is the major reason we lamb only a few of our ewe lambs.

IMO, primitives and hill breeds generally benefit from two growing seasons before being tupped.  If the hoggs can run with the ewes as the ewes lamb, a lot of people claim it gives the hoggs some vicarious experience of lambs and they cope better when they have lambs of their own the following year.

A hogg feeding a lamb needs a lot of input.  Cake and hay really aren't adequate to feed her own growth plus making milk for her lamb.  So plan your hoggs lambing when there will be new growing grass - maybe Februray down south but more like late April / May up here.

We've heard about a number of local Beltex breeders using a Shetland tup on their hoggs, the tiny crossbreed lambs being vigourous and easily lambed, finding their way to the milk bar whether or not the mother knows what to do.  The Beltex hoggs then lamb much more successfully as shearlings to the Beltex tup.  We experimented with using a Shetland on a couple of commercial Charollais hoggs this year.  We've been delighted with the results and will be very happy to use a Shetland on any well-grown commercial hoggs in future years.  The ewe lamb will stay as a breeder (with a very nice fleece  ), and the tup lamb is so strong we are going to use him on my fleece sheep and on a few of our commercial small first time lambers (shearling Dutch Texels.)

My only other comment is that if you are new to lambing, ideally have experienced ewes.  And don't lamb hoggs if it's your first time too.

[Victorian Farmer]

That was well said sally whot stock do you have in wales and haw meney i like welsh sheep and love the ram sale in the autum

[Tim W]

I put just about every ewe lamb to the tup as a matter of course. In general if they are 50% of mature weight they get in lamb (put 350 to the tup every year and 270+ end up in lamb)
Of those that get in lamb 90% will rear a good lamb and go on to rear a lamb or two as a yearling

These animals do all this on grass alone and lamb outside with minimal interference ---I assisted 2 animals this year out of 280 ewe lambs

When lambing ewe lambs the key I think is to let them have plenty of room and to leave them alone, don't separate them from the main flock as they like to mix in with the mature ewes , I think they gain from having experienced mothers around-----wean these girls a bit earlier than the mature ewes to give them a bit of time to get back in condition before going to the tup again

I find that if a ewe lamb rears a lamb it usually scans at 20% lower the next year than ewes that were barren as hogs---but 1 lamb in year 1 + 1.5 lambs in year 2 (2.5 lambs total) is better than no lambs in year 1 and 1.8 lambs in year 2

[SallyintNorth]

  Victorian Farmer.  I think you may be confusing me with Bionic Sally - she's in Wales (with Ryelands.)  I'm the Sally in the far north of England.  Our commercial sheep are Texel X, Dutch Texel X and Charollais X, with a smattering of North of England Mules (Swaledale x Blue-faced Leicester) whose Texel X daughters are kept on as breeders.  My wee fleece flock is a couple each of Castlemilk Moorits, Manx Loaghtans and Shetland Xs.  This year's 3 Shetland X ewe lambs won't be tupped till next year.

[Foobar]

I do it (with Black Welsh Mountain sheep), they need to be 60% of their mature weight though.  And you need to ensure that they have adequate food over winter as they will need to keep growing themselves.  Don't overfeed pre-lambing though, you don't want big lambs.
I find them brilliant mothers, and I find gimmers lambing for the first time to be a pain in the ass!
I lamb outside though, i don't know what they would be like indoors.  One thing I would add though is that I tend to bring mine in once they have lambed, just for 24-48 hours, and I've noticed that sometimes it can be tricky getting a ewe-lamb to come in by following her lamb(s), especially if the rest of the flock is around, as she hasn't yet learnt that she needs to stick with her lambs rather than the rest of the flock.  To get around this, I leave them outside for a bit longer than I would the older ones, so that they can bond, and stay well away from them if possible so that they don't move away from the lambs.
Also, it would be wise to shear the wool away from the front of the back leg/belly to make access to the teats easier, and ewe-lambs will be more wooly than ewes.  Do this well before lambing time - I would do it when I do the pre-lambing vaccination.
And like TimW says, wean early.

There is a good document by the ADAS, I will try to dig out a link...


...I couldn't find the original one, I think it was called ewe-lamb blueprint, but here is another similiar:
http://www.eblex.org.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/breeding_ewe_lambs150512.pdf

[Victorian Farmer]

  hi sally north of england i do get dawn youre way hexam wether very hard in winter.

[Rosemary]

Thanks for the Eblex link. I don't think I'll bother - trying to manage a "flock" of two ewe lambs is impossible. I'll stick to Plan A - it's worked OK so far.

[Ladygrey]

I put three ewe lambs to the tup last year,

One was a difficult birth and didnt want the lamb and the other two got stuck/dead lambs

I thought as I would be using a charrolais (easy lambing) I would be ok but obviously not.

This year I am putting shearlings to the tup instead, and also will get them all scanned so I dont over-feed any singles

I may put some ewe lambs to the tup in the future but make sure they are scanned and probly use the shetland tup for first timers instead of chunky ram