[luckylady]

This week we have heard that the planning officer is going to recommend refusal on our application when it goes to the sub-committee next week.  We applied for permission to convert a barn for our adult daughter to live in but it is to be refused on grounds of privacy and sustainability of village life without the use of a private car i.e. they think no-one can live in our village without a car even though we are only 2 miles from town, walking and cycling distance and have a bus service, school buses etc.  I can prove that we have visiting retailers to the village, eg butcher, milkman with groceries, fishmonger, online supermarkets but can anyone else advise how we can get around this sustainability directive to add to our case when we have our three minutes to speak at the meeting?
Oh and they say we will be refused on privacy grounds even though it will be our daughter living there but have also said that they would give permission for a holiday cottage. So lots of strangers can invade our privacy instead then? 

[southernskye]

How odd? Sustainability Jeez.
OK, how about mentioning any suppliers and traders that will deliver, especially where online shopping can be done.
Privacy might be worth querying if she could live in your house, spare bedroom for example, where there would be even less privacy which is why you wish to convert the barn so that both parties have a degree of privacy.
Really don't know, seems some odd reasons on their part, would have  thought there's some underlying reason that you have not heard about yet. However, I have no real experience of the odd beast that is planning.
Good luck.
Sskye

[Backinwellies]

This sounds like it is because you are asking for residential use ... Ok for your daughter ... but won't be restricited to her long term... and property could be sold separately. (and thus privacy of your property gone)   Holiday letting is temp residential with no permission for long term residency.    Sometimes this can be got round by adding a clause preventing long term residency such as must be empty for a week a year.

Not sure that helps.

[sabrina]

Difficult one. Is there no one in your area done something similar. If your daughter was looking after you or had special needs then I bet you would get your planning.

[lachlanandmarcus]

The privacy argument one is a relevant one given that it sounds like you have applied for PP for a separate dwelling, in that scenario they cant just look at who lives there first but who might in the future.


Have you investigated whether they would give permission for it if it were tied to the main dwelling ie could not be sold separately? Think it used to be a section 75. That way it would be restricted to in effect extended family occupation so their arguments which would be relevant to a new dwelling in that plot/location re privacy/sustainability tend to fall away.


It would reduce the value of the end result as it couldn't be sold independently, but if the project really is to provide family accommodation then it could be worth considering.


In my experience, new independent houses in the countryside are not normally allowed outside communities with their own range of amenities unless it is a conversion or renovation and then only one which has enough space from neighbouring ones for privacy considerations to be satisfied.

[southernskye]

Fair points L&M, sort of get it classed as an extension to the main house as it were rather than separate. Sounds like a compromise worth investigating.
 
I recall working near Slough for several months and I stayed at a farm B&B with S/C units. But I could only stay there for a set time....2 months perhaps?...then I moved into the B&B for the remainder. That was due to there being restrictions to the units as S/C accommodation and how long they could have a guest reside in one.
 
Sskye

[luckylady]

Thanks for the feedback.  Yes lachlanandmarcus, I will be suggesting that the barn conversion be tied to the farmhouse re occupancy as we have no issues with that.  We are here for the long term and are not worried about the value etc as all we want is to provide somewhere for our daughter to live that she can afford (she is 25 and currently lives with us, works part-time and is studying to be an accountant).  The planning officer who came to site was a real sourpuss and has assumed we are developers as opposed to just a family and that we are out to make a fast buck.  There has been no contact from her to discuss any issues of design to rectify the privacy issues she has (which would be simple enough).  She states that the farmhouse rear windows will look directly into the barn conversion kitchen therefore creating a privacy issue.  If she had bothered to ask, I could have let her know that the three windows in question do not pose a problem as one is frosted glass, another is blocked from looking in by the old fold yard 8ft6in wall and the nearest one is a bedroom which you step down into so that window is elevated and unless you stand on the bed you can't see down.
It was the parish council who asked for it to go to committee if the officer was going to refuse permission as they fully support the application.  She has been very difficult from the start and although permission has been granted to extend the farmhouse into the old milking parlour she has put constraints on it which are akin (so I am told) to what would be put on a grade 2 listed building.
She has outright refused two other applications in the area (though not our village) on the grounds of sustainability.  If this is the new government directive then they are killing the countryside communities. 

[lachlanandmarcus]

If she is really unhelpful she might just say no even with the tie. It's a gamble, leave off the tie and hope the committee approve it anyway? Or add the tie and go for it that way?


To be fair ( even if she's not being), planning policy still isn't in favour of single new dwellings in the countryside except as I described above, so she has policy on her side. If you dont put in the tie and thecommittee do turn it down therefore, it would be not too likely you would succeed on appeal because they will simply look at policy and process.


Unless you are very confident (or willing to reapply with the tie if declined - but remember its much harder to get someone to say yes if theyve previously said no), iit were me and with the priorities you describe, I would insist on the planning app being amended to include the tie to the main house before it goes to committee and her recommendation based on that scenario.


NB the normal rules up here, not sure about where you are but think it is the same is that if a planning officer recommends refusal it will automatically go to committee, so parish council aren't getting that favour for you, it's automatic.


Ironically if you were a big developer then the councils obligations to build x new houses in the local plan would probably mean some large greenfield site being allowed to have hundreds of ugly boxy new homes on it, in return for a ' bribe' sorry, planning gain contribution :-)))))


NB no sure if having the tie may (it may well) have one benefit, I'm not sure you would be stung with several thousand in planning gain payments before you get issued with planning permission - they tend to be charged for all new houses but this might not now be counted as one with the tie.

[luckylady]

Thanks lachlanandmarcus, interesting points.  We are in Yorkshire.  The planning officer can make the decision to refuse or not without committee input and, in this case, it was the PC who instigated it going to committee and this is the only reason it has.  I have checked the agenda on the planning portal.  The biggest hurdle we face, I think, is the sustainability issue.  It is assumed that no-one can live in the village without a private car.  Planning officer has made numerous assumptions and based her recommended refusal on these using the local planning strategy to back her up, which in fairness is her job.  Not sure yet whether we would be cutting our noses off to spite our faces if we tried to discredit her opinion.  As my OH says they all p**s in the same pot!  Also they have only given us a week to prepare our case,  The decision should have been made by them by 10th May and we only heard on 31st May that it was going to committee.  She should have contacted us as soon as the first deadline passed.  I tried to contact her but her phone was engaged for days, or she was out on site visits, or on leave or off sick.  Avoidance tactics I think.    Sorry to rant.

[lachlanandmarcus]

Rant away, planning things are about the most stressful cos it matters so damn much and it always seems like the planning peeps are quite casual about stopping your plans!!


We've been very lucky despite having a B listed house, they allowed a small mansard on the back to provide small showers ensuite for the bedrooms and because it is attached to the steading and barn they gave PP for conversion of those into the house. We have to do it all v expensively of course using trad materials but I agree with that part so there's no issue. I think we also benefitted as a previous owner wanted to flatten the house and build a bungalow :-))


We also recently got PP for a ruined cottage we own in one of our fields to be reinstated renovated and substantially extended. But we didn't face the privacy hurdles involved in your case (its hardly visible from the main (listed) house, and also it having been a house before (and never used as anything else, still on the council tax register and land registry separately) meant although they hit us with planning gain for a new dwelling, they did agree that it would be a good thing for it to be resurrected, even if to make it viable it would need to have the extension. However I think they wouldnt have been so positive before the recent planning changes which encourage reuse of derelict homes.. Which is why we waited for the policy change before applying.


I do think you have a stronger chance now under the new policies than the old. It's just that gamble about the tie. Maybe go in without and if they look like they are going to refuse, resubmit with?

[ellied]

I would say if you use your 3 minutes you can cover the window privacy and the change to tied use of the subsidiary dwelling should be enough to meet the criteria.  If your daughter is already living at home then there is no additional travel/amenity issue if she lives a few feet further away and copes as things stand?

I can see the point in putting safeguards in place to avoid overbuilding in rural areas, but with the changes suggested to reflect your actual situation rather than the worst case development scenario one would HOPE sense might prevail.. 

[doganjo]

Have you written to your local Councillors that are on teh committee pleading your case?  I was advised to do that by my planning consultant and it definitely helped - I had three rooting fro me straight away at the meeting.

I just need to sell it now! 

[luckylady]

Have you written to your local Councillors that are on teh committee pleading your case?  I was advised to do that by my planning consultant and it definitely helped - I had three rooting fro me straight away at the meeting.

I wouldn't know how to put it and there is scarcely any time left to do it.  I am so tired    of it all now I just want to say to hell with it.  OH is away so can't help, just had his 75 yr old dad to hospital to find out he has to have triple bypass, looks like my 79 yr mother has to have a pacemaker, its me who has to do all the hospital trips and I live 20 miles away from both of them, dog was at vet yesterday and have to take him back tomorrow, kitten needs bottle at ungodly hours (bless the squidgy little bundle tho), OH phoning up to ask if I have put the netting over the cabbage plants  , horses to muck out, sheep to shear, greenhouse sections to paint before it goes up on OH's return and at some point find time to eat and sleep between all the other jobs.  The last thing I need is the blasted planners getting all jobsworth!    That's better - 2nd rant over.  Now on to count my blessings, the biggest one being my lovely daughter who does all she can when she's not at work. My OH WILL be returning from one of the 'stan' countries, his father is unlikely to have a heart attack now, mothers palpitations will settle, I am there to support them both, dogs ear IS being treated, kitten IS still alive and kicking (or scratching), the netting is already over the cabbage plants (I didn't need telling), daughter mucks out horses as much a she can, sheep to be done on Friday, painting of greenhouse been put to bottom of list, I am lucky to have food to eat and a place to sleep when others don't and when all said and done its only a planning application.  There, blood pressure restored to normal and perspective restored.   Thanks all. 

[doganjo]

Umm luckylady?   

I was given three days to write to my Councillors before the Committee meeting.  I just was very polite and asked them to consider my application favourably and gave them the reasons why I thought they should.

[Lesley Silvester]

Hope it all goes well for you, LL.