[Maudlin-Matilda]

Hello everyone.

Our first goat has just had her first kids and this is my first time on the forum.  A week of new experiences - this one being the least stressful of the lot!!!

Could anyone tell me when I should first worm the kids, as I have had some conflicting advice - from 4 weeks old to not at all unless they show signs of worms in their droppings.

We are in Ireland and on wet ground, which has previously had cattle on it, so our vet gives us Albex for the adult goats as a combined wormer/liver fluke preventative.  However, a vet that knows about goats seems to be a very rare commodity in this area and by her own admission, our vet knows little more than we do.

She does do plenty of research before advising us but I'm not sure I want to risk her getting it wrong on this one.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

[wytsend]

Worm kids at 4wks wit an Ivermectin based wormer............do not use the fluke one on kids.
Any sheep wormer like Oramec is excellnet and should be given at 1.5times the sheep dose.
Whereabouts are you in Ireland..............might be able to point you to an experienced goatkeeper.

[Maudlin-Matilda]

Many thanks for the advice, especially for the dosage guidelines too.

We are in Co. Cavan.

[Maudlin-Matilda]

Just one more question on this one:

I've just been reading another post about worming goats that recommends alternating between a white wormer and a yellow wormer.  I understand from this that Panacur is white and Levamisole yellow but can't quite pick up on whether the Ivermectin-based wormers are white or yellow.

I would need both a white and a yellow wormer that also cover liver fluke - would someone be kind enough to give me a few names for both white and yellow wormers that do this, as well as advising on Ivermectin.

[Anke]

If your land has not had sheep on it in the last 12 months or longer you can be fairly certain that it is worm-free with regard to worms that live in goats. I would do a post-kidding worm count on your adult and only then worm if it is necessary. About 10 days after worming submit another sample to make sure you don't have resistant worms.
Adult goats do not (unlike sheep) develop any tolerance to worms, so runny droppings, a fall in milk yield and a rough coat would be spotted quite quickly if they were wormy. If your land is wet they are likely to also pick up fluke in time, but I have no experience with that in my goats (yet, my sheep have got it but use different and very wet fields..)
I didn't worm my goats in the last 12 months, and am just about to submit another sample for a count.
An ivermectin type wormer that is good for goats is Oramec. I use drenches rather than injectable wormers, Oramec is also 1.5 to 2 times the sheep dose.
The best book on goat veterinary care is the 2009 (3rd) edition of John Matthews " Diseases of the goat". Your vet should have one in their practice, and I would also recommend it for every goatkeeper. Takes a bit getting used to reading, as written in veterinary text book way, but gives all the info you would need and more....

[Maudlin-Matilda]

Thanks for that - the problem is that we don't know what exactly what livestock was on our land or where it was before we moved here because a few of the neighbours were using it for grazing both sheep and cows.  Also, whilst we have been here for two years, and the goats just over a year, we still frequently get invaded by sheep from a neighbouring farm.

Liver fluke seems to be a major problem in this area of Ireland.  The land is very wet and we are surrounded by both cattle and sheep, so I tend to treat with Albex drench every six months (as my vet recommended) as a preventative for both fluke and worms.  Is this overkill?

On the subject of the vet, I doubt very much that they have the Matthews text.  As I mentioned below, they know little more than we do and whilst they are not the only vet in the area, the others either will not treat goats at all or are too far away.

Is the Oramec/Ivermectin a white or yellow wormer and is the idea that I get the sample tested and then treat with one or the other if it is positive?  If yes, do I then wait for another positive test before using the other kind?

Also, after I worm the kids at 4 weeks do I then go on to the testing/treating if necessary routine, or should I worm them regularly to a certain age and then go into this routine.

Sorry to keep asking so many questions but it's all a bit confusing.

[Maudlin-Matilda]

Thought I'd share this for anyone who is as confused as I am about this whole worming thing.  It's about sheep but I guess that means it applies to goats too.

http://www.rivercottage.net/forum/ask/other-livestock/27350confused-about-wormers/

[wytsend]

Panacure ....des[ite being the only wormer licensed for use in goats.......is a waste of money,  most worms are totally resistant to it !!!!    Only use Ivermectin based ones............colour has nothing to do with it.
Carry on with a flukicide as a matter of course.
 

[Maudlin-Matilda]

I know that there are bound to be different opinions on this issue but the overriding impression I now get (and I have researching this for a couple of weeks now) is that I should not be worming my adult goats every six months as I am now but getting FECs instead to find out if worming is necessary.  If it does prove to be necessary, I think that I should be alternating wormers to prevent resistance building up.

All that said, a considerable number of goat keepers also seem to recommend worming after kidding and in the autumn, which would be virtually the same routine as I'm in now.

If it is the case that I should be relying on FECs to tell me when to worm, do I therefore need to use a separate flukicide more regularly and if so, which one.  Wytsend, could you expand on 'as a matter of course' please.

I would also really like to know if whether the worming at 4 weeks for kids is the only worming they need unless FECs suggest otherwise at a later date, or should they get a more regular dose until they are older.

This might also be of interest to other members, it's a link to an article on resistance to wormers produced by Teagasc, a farming organisation here in Ireland.  Again, it's about sheep but interesting (if worrying) nonetheless:

http://www.teagasc.ie/newsletters/farmingtips/2009/sheep-20090609.asp

Incidentally, I have also discovered that Albex, the combined wormer and flukicide that I currently use is not recommended (at least by the licensing authorities in Ireland) for use in sheep whose milk is for human consumption, so I guess that would apply to goats as well.  Potentially another black mark against my hapless vet!

[Dogwalker]

Thought I'd share this for anyone who is as confused as I am about this whole worming thing.  It's about sheep but I guess that means it applies to goats too.

http://www.rivercottage.net/forum/ask/other-livestock/27350confused-about-wormers/

Thank you for posting the link, it's very helpful.  Think Imay have to read it a few more times to get it all straight though.

[Anke]

You will find that there are virtually NO medicines licensed for use in goats, but (in the UK and I guess in Ireland too) vets can prescriŽbe any medicine under the "cascade" system. It basically means they know it will work in goats but they are not responsible for the outcome... However many vets never see a goat during their training and only see them once they practice...
So for any medication you use you can either use the cattle/dairy cow withdrawal time for milk (if there is one) or use the standard 7 days. During that time however the milk can still be consumed by the (goat) kids. You just have to use your common sense.
Ivermectin is the third class of wormers generally used, and has not yet had wide-spread resistance reported. If your goats at the moment are well (glossy coat, normal droppings, milk yield as expected and not going down rapidly) I would think they have no or minimal worm infestation. if you test regularly you will find it gets expensive soon...
I do a worm-count on one of my goats after kidding and if positive treat the whole herd. If they then do well over summer and I don't see any symptoms as above indicating worms (I have had them in my herd so know what to look out for), then I just leave them for the winter. However I do not have sheep on my goat field. My goats also stay inside for most of the winter so I can rest the goat field.
For fluke in my sheep I use Fasinex, it has a long meat withdrawal period, but I have not had reason to use it on my goats. However that's the one I would use as it is the only one that treats all stages of fluke, including eggs.
 
 

[wytsend]

Fasinex would be my choice for fluke management.
If fluke is a known problem in your area........find out from a local dairy farmer how often they use a flukicide and be guided by that.   They (the farmers) are advised every time a beast is slaughtered if fluke is found and they are penalised so I would assume they are well advised on this issue.