[Laurieston]

Sadly it is now clear that one of my hives has collapsed: No bees still alive.  There is however still an amount of honey and sugar:water feed left over from last year.  Also the frames are fully drawn out and usable.  There is sign of dysentry on the frames tops; not a lot but some

My question is what to do with the frames.  I will repopulate the hive by taking some brood and food frames from another colony, so I would like to use the old feed, comb etc., from the now dead hive.

Is that a big mistake?  And if so how do I clean them properly?  The comb I can melt down (if it ever gets warm enough to use a solar wax melter), the frames with a blow torch?

Maybe I need to see this as an investment in health rather than a loss in potential resources...

[crazy_bull]

Don't re-use the combs, just not worth it, cut out the old combs and burn or re-cycle (in the solar wax extractor)which ever you fancy. You can blow torch the frames but i find it is easier to have a boiler and submerg them in a hot solution of soda crystals and water, it has the desired effect of disinfecting and cleaning in one motion, you can clean hundreds of frames an hour using that method with a decent boiler.

C B

[P6te]

Hi Laurieston,

Regarding:

I will repopulate the hive by taking some brood and food frames from another colony, so I would like to use the old feed, comb etc., from the now dead hive.

I'm not sure what you were planning on there but I would not recommend just taking brood frames in the hope of them rearing a queen.  I would repopulate this hive as part of your swarm control measures.  By this I don't mean hiving a swarm, I mean either artificially swarm the hive or double brood then use one of a number of measures such as Snelgroving.  By doing it this way you can maximise colony strength and ensure the best possible surplus of honey.

The other thing worth adding, is if as suggested by crazy_bull you melt down the combs and start afresh with new foundation, ALWAYS have the bees draw out the new combs ABOVE the queen excluder if at all possible.

Hope this helps.

Pete

[Laurieston]

Snelgrove - that sounds interesting, and somewhat complex.  Like what I read, thanks for the tip.

Question: why is it better to have the bees draw out the new comb above the QE?

[P6te]

Hi Laurieston,

Snelgroving is relatively complex but if you understand the principal then you can apply your own take on it. If you Google it you will find loads of information. The one thing to consider is either preventing drones getting into the supers via the top entrance or ensuring you manage there removal when it comes to extraction time. (Drones will get stuck in a queen excluder and block a porter bee escape!!)

Regarding getting combs drawn out above the Queen Excluder, bees do a much better job of drawing out combs there (a swarm may be an exception to this rule). If drawn out in the brood chamber they will frequently remove the corners within the frame to provide passage through the comb and the bottom bar (next to the floor) is not normally well drawn out to the base of the comb.

Pete

[Henrietta]

I would certainly not use the old frames unless they are properly cleaned.  It would be useful to know what caused their death, ie. is it disease related.  I have not had so many problems since I stopped trying to manipulate the bees.  I threw out the queen excluders, the bees hate them and are not happy to work where the queen can't get to. The excluders also knock the bees wings about, probably shortening their lives.  I always leave enough honey to see them through the winter and would only use sugar syrup as a last resort.  Bees are designed to make their own wax.  The wax foundation you buy has been recycled over and over and contains anything that it came into contact with in the past, including pesticides.  I have moved over to natural bee keeping, allowing the bees to make their own comb,  and so far so good.  It's all a bit of a mix, as I am doing this in my old smith hives.  I did look at the warre hive but the smith is only a bit bigger and I saved the expense of getting new.  Even our local bee inspector has moved over to a more natural way of beekeeping!!  As for the drones, it is now believed that they are good for the health of the hive, and much as no-one likes their bees to swarm, it is natural to them and good for the population of bees generally.

[Clarebelle]

That sounds like a really interesting way of beekeeping (I've never done it, only read about it), do you have any trouble with frames of mixed honey/brood? I guess if you do, they are the frames you leave with the bees over winter?

[Henrietta]

I have to admit that I keep the bees for the bees more than the honey, although it wasn't my original intention.  I have found that although some of the frames have a mixture of brood and feed stores, the frames at the top of the hive remain honey.  I think the queen will go from the brood box at the bottom and then move up one and move down again.  She tends to keep down in the hive.  Of course under this system you can't be sure of where she is, but you know where she isn't because the bees are far calmer and only start to get more aggressive as you get nearer the queen. 
When the brood have finished with the combs, they are cleaned up by the bees and reused, and as the year goes on, the brood get less and the honey more.   I only looked at them twice last year, and only take a couple of frames if they really can spare them.  I feel quite strongly about not using queen excluders and wish I had taken this path sooner.  It almost feels that I've set them free ha ha! 

[P6te]

Hi Henrietta,

In my opinion 'we' progressed from keeping bees in skeps and the likes to removable frame hives for good reasons. I am interested to understand how you can inspect the hive. If bees do not have foundation of some form they can and frequently will produce comb at whatever angle suits them, certainly not neatly within the confines of a frame to aid you when you wish to open up the hive.

If you don't 'manage' the bees, what form of swarm control do you exercise?

If the combs can't be readily removed how do you ensure the bees and brood are healthy?

I am inclined to agree that slotted queen excluder can wear the bees wings but they are not the only ones available though, you can get the wire bar type which I prefer. That said, I suspect the difference between the two is marginal.

I could go one with lots more questions but will be interested to read your thoughts on these first.

Regards

Pete

[Henrietta]

Hi Pete,
I am still very much on a learning curve on this.  I used to keep the bees in the usual way,  opening up the hive every three or four weeks during the summer, removing queen cells etc. and feeding sugar syrup in the winter.  I lost three colonies overall, not in one year I hasten to add.  I didn't feel very happy about the way they are manipulated and wondered if there was a more natural way to keep them.  I also became more concerned with the health of the bees than the honey.  I read "The Barefoot Beekeeper" by Phil Chandler and was very inspired by his writings.  I haven't yet bought a specific top bar hive, but will do so this year with hopefully some new swarms.  I have left the existing frames in the smith hives which the bees still use, and yes they do build extra comb, including a large amount of comb in the roof space.  It does make it more difficult to examine the hive and much greater care is needed in doing as little damage as possible when opening up, but the hive was only gone through completely in the autumn and with the bee inspector.  I actually thought the inspector would probably not be pleased with what I was doing, but she was very interested and has started keeping top bar hives herself.  There has been EFB in the area and therefore an examination was a must.  There are no certainties here and it is learn as you go, but I believe that we have to find a kinder way to look after bees if we are to build up a healthier population.  To answer your question on swarm control, I don't do any.  How will we build up a good population globally if we try to stop them swarming.  It is for the good of us all to have plenty of swarms out here.  I also believe that they are more inclined to swarm if they aren't happy where they are.  I haven't yet had a hive that has swarmed out altogether, but it is a risk I will take, and haven't had a problem getting swarms through my local beekeepers association.  The bees were all flying the other day when we had a nice day, so all is well at the moment. 

[P6te]

Hi Henrietta,

Clearly the subject of top bars hives is one in its own right and I'll be interested to hear your experience if you post them in the coming months.

Regarding:

To answer your question on swarm control, I don't do any.  How will we build up a good population globally if we try to stop them swarming.  It is for the good of us all to have plenty of swarms out here.  I also believe that they are more inclined to swarm if they aren't happy where they are.  I haven't yet had a hive that has swarmed out altogether, but it is a risk I will take, and haven't had a problem getting swarms through my local beekeepers association.

I don't know where you live but allowing colonies to swarm at will, will frequently result in swarms setting up home in inappropriate places that beekeepers are subsequently requested to remove. Although there will be exceptions, its my belief that very few swarms find accommodation in a natural environment in which they can then thrive.

Whilst swarming is the way in which colonies 'multiply' in nature, in managed environments this can be done in a controlled fashion and the end result is the same and if done correctly stronger colonies result.

When you refer to 'I haven't yet had a hive that has swarmed out altogether' I assume you mean the situation where prime swarm and multiple casts have emerged and the last remaining queen cells fails to hatch (or to mate). Under normal circumstances bees do not all leave ... each swarm /cast leaves with approximately half the remaining population of bees until they are too weak for any more to issue.  The latter casts are generally so weak they stand very little chance of surviving.

I haven't come across the theory that bees are more inclined to swarm if they aren't happy where they are before (deserting the hive in exceptional cases maybe but not swarming), swarming is generally considered to be a result of the flying bees, the brood and the queen ... look up Snelgroving and you'll find a host of information on it.

Finally, when you say you 'haven't had a problem getting swarms through my local beekeepers association' ... the fact that so many swarms are in need of collecting is as a result of lack of swarm control and by introducing 'stray swarms' into your apiary you are risking introducing disease and an unknown temperament of bee for you to manage.  Particularly if you are moving to top frame hives, I for one would most certainly not adopt this approach.

Pete

[Henrietta]

Hi Pete,
I think we will have to agree to disagree on some of this.  I belong to a local bee-keepers association where some members keep bees in the old tradition, usually the older members, but there has been a surge of interest in the last couple of years and there are lots of younger people who are adopting more natural methods.  The club apiaries were all destroyed last year due to EFB.  These apiaries were well "managed" every two or three weeks throughout the summer months, so the theory that swarm control helps to prevent disease doesn't seem to hold sway.  Incidentally, my hives are within distance of the club hives, which is why I was obliged to have mine inspected.  Of course you are right that there is a risk of disease from a collected swarm, but bees risk this contamination from other bees all the time as they are foraging.  I haven't yet had a swarm that was carrying a disease.
  I don't know where you live either, but our members are very eager to get on the swarm list every year, and certainly don't see stray swarms as some kind of nuisance.  Yes, the colonies do have different temperaments and if you are unfortunate enough to have a really aggressive lot, you could change the queen.  The only really aggressive bees I have encountered were those being sold complete with hives at a bee-keepers sale.  They actually came across the field as you approached, to sting you, incredible! 
I do think that traditional bee-keeping has played a part in the decline of bees, although I would lay most of the blame with the use of pesticides and monoculture.  Maybe that's why the bees do well in London.
Just as a point of interest, I was called to pick up a swarm which had come from a huge barn.  I hived them at home with the intention of moving them up with the others if they were ok.  They swarmed the next day at noon into a plum tree.  I knocked them down and put them back in the hive.  The next day they swarmed again to the same tree, and I knew they weren't going to stay.  I had to go out that afternoon and so said goodbye to them.  They obviously didn't like the hive. 

[P6te]

Hi Henrietta

re 'I think we will have to agree to disagree on some of this', no problem there at all, we all have our views and are entitled to them! 

On my profile you'll see I'm in South Derbyshire, I'd be interested to know where you are located.

Regarding stray swarms as some kind of nuisance,I didn't meant to imply beekeepers view them as such but I do think the public do in general!

Regards

Pete

[Henrietta]

Hi Pete,
I'm in West Sussex bordering Hampshire.  Sorry I misinterpreted what you meant, I must admit I thought it a bit odd that you would think that way about swarms.. To be honest I am only keen to pay my subs as quickly as I do,  because as the club keep telling us, the sooner we pay the subs, the quicker we get on the swarm list!  My son in law keeps bees down on the south coast and his local bee-keepers ass. doesn't have a swarm list for all its members.  Very unfair I think.  Anyway Pete I wish you a very successful year with your bees.
Henrietta.
 

[P6te]

You too ... and keep us posted regarding your experience with a top bar hive.

Pete