Author Topic: New Years Day Sheep Death  (Read 14350 times)

goosepimple

  • Joined May 2010
  • nr Lauder, Scottish Borders
Re: New Years Day Sheep Death
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2013, 01:00:23 pm »
She died overnight. 
 
I have checked her feet which are fine, blood from rear end and nostrils, not from mouth though, is this just deterioration/relaxation of carcas?  Can't get her jaw open to see inside the mouth but don't see anything untoward in gums. 
 
Will know in a few days, post mortem tomorrow and will ask for a quick result.  All other ewes are happy and healthy and energetic.  Will report back findings to let you all know, always a worry with Ronaldsays that there is some copper thing going on but we have been very careful about that so almost ruling that out but will mention it to pm examiner.
registered soay, castlemilk moorit  and north ronaldsay sheep, pygmy goats, steinbacher geese, muscovy ducks, various hens, lots of visiting mallards, a naughty border collie, a puss and a couple of guinea pigs

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: New Years Day Sheep Death
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2013, 02:20:21 pm »
That's a sad start to the new year....
 
But her age may not have been in her favour either...
 
If she had a heavy fluke burden her gums/eye lids should have been very pale, but I don't know if that would still be the case post mortem. Blood frm the nostrils can be post mortem, I have seen it in carcasses. Mucus/blood at her backend could also point to enterotoxeamia and/or cocci (unlikely in an older ewe).
 
It may just be that it was her time.... and if all your others are fine there is not much you can do.
 
I would however consider fluking them with Fasinex. I am about to get another bottle (mine are due their second dose), if you want some decanted  (have you got your own drenching syringe - better value for the small herd than a proper gun) we can arrange that easily.
 
 

goosepimple

  • Joined May 2010
  • nr Lauder, Scottish Borders
Re: New Years Day Sheep Death
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2013, 04:25:12 pm »
Thank you Anke that's very kind.  Nigel wants tests on their fresh poos rather than just fluking them on the off chance, so I will have to go with what he suggests really - I will let him know your offer.  We have a big syringe and a turkey baster works well too.  Will let you know either way.
 
All stock were hep p plus and wormed in late June and are due another dose nowish so will talk to him about that too if fluking.
 
Everyone still good, am keeping a very close eye on them all, big clean out again today 3rd time this holidays alone, but all stock looking good and enjoying the sun and mild weather today.
registered soay, castlemilk moorit  and north ronaldsay sheep, pygmy goats, steinbacher geese, muscovy ducks, various hens, lots of visiting mallards, a naughty border collie, a puss and a couple of guinea pigs

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: New Years Day Sheep Death
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2013, 08:20:54 pm »
Well see what Nigel says, if you need Fasinex I'll have some fresh.
 
We found out in the fist year from faecal samples that we had fluke, even though no signs in the ewes at that time... now I have to treat at least twice a year, this year I'll throw in an additional one.
 
Let's hope your other girls are fine - and if the goats are sharing the paddock, they can get fluke too...

goosepimple

  • Joined May 2010
  • nr Lauder, Scottish Borders
Re: New Years Day Sheep Death
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2013, 08:27:07 pm »
Hmm, yes had thought of the goats Anke, sheep are in separate paddock now but at the time they would have caught fluke they would have all been together.  Am going to do their poo too, it's all to be labelled separately.
registered soay, castlemilk moorit  and north ronaldsay sheep, pygmy goats, steinbacher geese, muscovy ducks, various hens, lots of visiting mallards, a naughty border collie, a puss and a couple of guinea pigs

goosepimple

  • Joined May 2010
  • nr Lauder, Scottish Borders
Re: New Years Day Sheep Death
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2013, 08:24:39 pm »
Well, we are all clear on the fluke and worms, goats and sheep, great.  But here's an odd one:
 
Our ewe that died we are told (post mortem) had died from copper poisoning (north ronaldsays have a very low thershold to copper).  This was a great surprise as we have been completely careful from the outset and have only fed what was recommended and fed by the previous owner without problem for 7 years.
 
At first I was told by the lab she had a 'bolus' (given to cattle to slowly leach out copper) but it turned out to be an electronic tag placed there years ago as a lamb.  So that was ruled out.
 
We then had the 3 foods we use for our different livestock analysed.  Out of the 3 (maize, ewe nuts and the sheep crunch we feed to the goats), the food we give our ronaldsays had the highest copper levels, but the level still came in at under the maximum level recommended by the North Ronaldsay Society, so not high enough to poison them.  So it doesn't look like its any of the food stuffs. 
 
Before we got the sheep we tested the land for acidity in around 20 different locations and it was within the recommended levels of acidity, so no problems there.
 
So we are stuck - a copper poisoned sheep but no copper around anywhere at levels that would normally kill a north ronaldsay.
 
Are these sheep just flimsy and rare breed for a reason.  ::)   Having now spent almost £200 on finding out nothing apart from not having a worm or fluke problem, I could have replaced my ewe 4 times.
 
What am I doing  ???   ???   ???  (don't answer please).  All donations gratefully received. :-\
 
 
registered soay, castlemilk moorit  and north ronaldsay sheep, pygmy goats, steinbacher geese, muscovy ducks, various hens, lots of visiting mallards, a naughty border collie, a puss and a couple of guinea pigs

SteveHants

  • Joined Aug 2011
Re: New Years Day Sheep Death
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2013, 11:37:42 pm »
The only thing I can think of is that your ground might have been used for pigs or had pig manure spread on it so is quite high in copper?




Fowgill Farm

  • Joined Feb 2009
Re: New Years Day Sheep Death
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2013, 09:18:02 am »
The only thing I can think of is that your ground might have been used for pigs or had pig manure spread on it so is quite high in copper?
Don't have sheep but we sometimes babysit neighbours ewes on our fields so my thought too as above or has she had access to anything she could spend time licking like a copper pipe on a drinker, electric fence battery or a mineral block thats been labelled wrongly?  very puzzling and awful not knowing. Hope you get to the bottom of it
mandy :pig:

goosepimple

  • Joined May 2010
  • nr Lauder, Scottish Borders
Re: New Years Day Sheep Death
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2013, 10:08:09 am »
No there's only been sheep on here for nigh on 20 years and no licks or copper pipes problems - we tested the soil in various locations before we brought the sheep in and am going to test it again this weekend as OH mentioned there may be a run off from neighbouring farmers fields due to all the rain.  Will also test the drinking water, we feed them from the river (never a problem here but these things may change due to the rain, river has been so high and the banking has been collapsing in places).
 
When dried grass has the copper content of 9mg/kg and the maximum you can give them is 10mg/kg then its difficult to get it right.  Ronaldsays by reputation, do have a habit of expiring.
registered soay, castlemilk moorit  and north ronaldsay sheep, pygmy goats, steinbacher geese, muscovy ducks, various hens, lots of visiting mallards, a naughty border collie, a puss and a couple of guinea pigs

kanisha

  • Joined Dec 2007
    • Spered Breizh Ouessants
    • Facebook
Re: New Years Day Sheep Death
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2013, 10:31:12 am »
OK just an idea is there anything that can prevent the uptake of copper that you could add to the diet?

sometimes other substances in the diet can balance out  mineral uptake I don't know enough about how copper is metabolized and in what form to be of any more use  :-\
Ravelry Group: - Ouessants & Company

goosepimple

  • Joined May 2010
  • nr Lauder, Scottish Borders
Re: New Years Day Sheep Death
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2013, 01:37:52 pm »
Thanks Kanisha, I contacted my vet yesterday asking just that, awaiting his reply.
registered soay, castlemilk moorit  and north ronaldsay sheep, pygmy goats, steinbacher geese, muscovy ducks, various hens, lots of visiting mallards, a naughty border collie, a puss and a couple of guinea pigs

Remy

  • Joined Dec 2011
Re: New Years Day Sheep Death
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2013, 06:22:15 pm »

Our ewe that died we are told (post mortem) had died from copper poisoning (north ronaldsays have a very low thershold to copper).  This was a great surprise as we have been completely careful from the outset and have only fed what was recommended and fed by the previous owner without problem for 7 years.


That's interesting - I had a 3 yr old Herdwick die early on last year and one of the things that came up on the PM was a high copper content - same with the ram I lost.  Both died in the same field.  I know it's not anything I have fed them and many others have been on the same field with no ill effect.  There were other possible causes of death though so it wasn't clear cut.
1 horse, 2 ponies, 4 dogs, 2 Kune Kunes, a variety of sheep

goosepimple

  • Joined May 2010
  • nr Lauder, Scottish Borders
Re: New Years Day Sheep Death
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2013, 07:55:48 pm »
Tested our soil again everywhere and the river water but no levels high enough to kill anybody even the ronaldsays.
 
When I handed the ewe carcas in to the lab I went on at length about the copper thing which makes me think it was easy to come back to me with that as the problem.
 
Everything is pointing to it NOT being copper, there are no levels anywhere here high enough to cause a problem (according to the NR Soc guidelines) so I am now working on the assumption she died of something else.  All the others seem in gleaming health.  ::)   
 
Think I should stop worrying and spending money.
registered soay, castlemilk moorit  and north ronaldsay sheep, pygmy goats, steinbacher geese, muscovy ducks, various hens, lots of visiting mallards, a naughty border collie, a puss and a couple of guinea pigs

Bramblecot

  • Joined Jul 2008
Re: New Years Day Sheep Death
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2013, 11:41:00 am »
GP, You probably will never really find out the answer, and I have no scientific background but I have just read an article by John Laurence (Mineral Supplements Technical Manager for MVF) ??? and I quote - 'Uptake is also affected by an antagonism between the elements.  A classic example of this would be molybdenum, well known for its antagonistic effect on copper availability to cattle in particular.  This is where elevated molybdenum levls in the forage can lead to a "lock-up" of copper in the rumen....'

If you would like to see the rest of the article I can send you a copy.  It is from MVF newsletter March 2010 (I know :-[ :-[ , I was clearing out my squalid desk!)

goosepimple

  • Joined May 2010
  • nr Lauder, Scottish Borders
Re: New Years Day Sheep Death
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2013, 01:32:44 pm »
thank you Bramblecot, I've either seen that article or something similar when we did our research.
 
It may be the case that she had  a 'lock up' of copper we will never know.  The rest look beaming with health and I now know we have no worms or fluke (so far) this year, so am just going to assume she died of 'something'.  She was nine, we had her for 7months so who knows what has happened to her before.  We are below 10mg/kg on background copper on everything and the land is good here for ronaldsays, so  :fc: , we're going by the book on everything.  I purposely didn't get them in lamb this year so we could see how they would fair here first....time will tell.  Many thanks.
registered soay, castlemilk moorit  and north ronaldsay sheep, pygmy goats, steinbacher geese, muscovy ducks, various hens, lots of visiting mallards, a naughty border collie, a puss and a couple of guinea pigs

 

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