[Cheviot]

Hi,

Cheviot - "but the incidence of HD in collies that actually work stock is very low" -  is that a personal observation or can it be proved? 

It is a personal observation, I don't think it can be proved, as hip scoring in ISDS collies is very rarely carried out, it is only really in the last few years that more ISDS people are doing it, but only because, if they want to sell puppies and dogs abroad, most of the overseas breed societies require it to be done before they will allow the dogs to be registered with their societies. I personally only know of one ISDS dog that was diagnosed with hip dyspaysia, but I do believe, that there is a lot of truth in what Sally says.

  I'm wondering why the KC stipulate hip testing as 'required' by their Assured Breeder Scheme rather than just recommended.  These Assured Breeders, although they may register dogs with the KC, are quite often working their dogs rather than showing.  The AB scheme is not just for show breeders, it is for all breeders who want to register their dogs with the KC.  I don't know much about the ISDS (or collies to be honest) so I am also grateful for the information.

It should be noted that Breed Standards were originally written by working owners not show ones.

I really do not know anything about the KC, but the purely KC reg show border collies in general are different, they are breeding them to have short legs! and square heads, usually with a rough coat, and the markings seem to be important features also.
My personal thoughts are as soon as you start to radically alter a breed there are prices to pay, maybe the hips have suffered, in the quest to breed short legged dogs, but I really don't know.
The ISDS do NOT have a breed standard, they are only interested in the working ability of the dog, so ISDS collies come in all shapes, sizes, coat length and colour.

  These Assured Breeders, although they may register dogs with the KC, are quite often working their dogs rather than showing.

When you say working, do you mean working livestock, I only ask as I know a lot of breeders and trainers of ISDS  collies, and none of them are interested in the KC or becoming assured breeders. I seem to vaugely remember something about the KC holding working tests for dogs, I have no idea what they required in these tests, but a german girl once told me that the KC reg dog she had bought to work sheep would be OK as it had passed it's working test, turned out it had no interest whatsoever in working sheep!
There are however a growing number of ISDS reg dogs also reg with the KC, this I believe is, because quite a number of pups are bought by agility people, and so it is easier for them to be able to compete in the KC affiliated shows,when their dog is already reg with the KC. 

[tazbabe]

I understand your point Doganjo and agree if it was a lab or spaniel etc, but working sheepdogs are just a bit different.  Bred by farmers who understand stock I don't think you get the problems that you do in the "pedigree" side of the breed.  I have never known eye problems in a working sheep dog, but then my parents only bred when they wanted another themselves. I would never buy a KC "pedigree" border collie because they are too inbred and have completely impractical coats and too slow (imho).  To be honest I'd rather take my chances with a farm bred pup with no health checks (as long as I knew the farmer and both pups parents).

agree !!

[happygolucky]

All I can think of is the farmers would see how the dogs are and so breed to produce a dog that they want, I cannot see why they would want to breed from a mature female or male that had obvious health or behavior problems, farmers are business people and would not want to waste time and money on breeding pups that were likely to have health problems, I so remember years ago my father in law getting new sheep dogs off his mate as he liked their dogs...that's the old traditional way and suits border collies......not the same for pet breeds though and that's when health checks come into their own....

[doganjo]

Not all inherited diseases show symptoms at an age where some dogs are bred(as early as at their first season!!!).  Sometimes a dog can be 2 or even 3 before symptoms show up, some are carriers and symptoms do not appear but can cause illness in progeny.
It is only common sense and SENSIBLE to do ALL required health checks whether in a working dog or any other. 

Just my honest opinion and NOT restricted to KC registered, whether Show or Working.

[funkyfish]

The problem with HD is that it isn't actually very genetic. Big factors are poor diet and over exercise before the skeletal system is mature. The recent fashion for feeding raw means we may be seeing more older dogs with poor hips.


I know of several people who have bought pups from parents and grand parents with very low scores, and the pup they have bought is crippled.

[happygolucky]

A lot of people do not understand the need for only moderate excesses and walks until the dog is fully developed, I hate to see cute little pups on long walks...we see that all the time...the owners have no idea....Its actually the same with children, my eldest used to push herself sports wise and often had shin splints due to constant running and cross country, all my daughters did loads of sport.....its all about moderation, I am very concerned that my Yellow Lab is far too fast and throws herself around all the time, goes up the highest banks and runs constantly, compared to my Chocolate Lab who has a sprint then dawdles around.......Collies tend to be fast and agile so can do loads of damage to themself as juvenile dogs, people however will never change!

[doganjo]

Sandy, Rohan wasn't out on her own yesterday was she? - saw a yellow lab wandering around on the pavement near your front gate but was past before I realised - only just thought about it now.  Hope she's OK.

Agree entirely about young pups getting too much exercise too soon, and also about there being some environmental influence on hips - but what you see happening is a throwback if a pup has bad hips from low scoring parents.  In order to get all hips low scoring (in fact zero) you must only breed from hips as near to zero as possible.  Anything above 10 will increase the chances of raising the score.  I have spoken to Malcolm Willis about this at length and that was his opinion - he instigated the BVA/KC HD scheme.  A survey was done in America which came to teh same conclusion. It HAS to be consistent - just one higher than average hip score puts it all backwards again.

We had a bitch about 26 years ago with a 30/28 score - she had come from a kennel (aged 14 months when we got her) where she had no exercise except to leap up and down on her back legs.  Malcolm told us her score was possibly 50 % environmental - but we heard later that her sire had been put down at 9 because of the pain in his hips, so in fact environment was of little influence in this case.

Malcolm was of the opinion that genetics are largely responsible for high hip scores,and that the way to reduce them was to always breed only with extremely low scores - the problem is that the gene pool is then restricted which is why it is not done and we are not very further forward.

[happygolucky]

No, ours were locked in...Impossible to get out, then get back in......there is a dog across the road that keeps getting out, not a pure yellow lab but a cross.....that dog has need out a few times, it's very young and as our house has strong dog smells they all come here, there are other labs near too.....ours were with us most of he day.......we nipped  out for a short time but they are padlocked around the back...one out...all out so def not Rohan...

[doganjo]

Thank goodness!    I only thought about it tonight when I came on here  It didn't cross my mind it might have been Rohan till then.  I know you're gates are always locked but I wondered if you'd maybe been unloading the car and she'd slipped out.  Glad it wasn't her. 

[happygolucky]

The people across from us have the most lovely dogs but are no good with them...one day I will steal them

[Cheviot]

Hi,

Thought I would just update this post, as the rules for breeding from ISDS dogs has radically changed recently,and my previous post is now outdated.

I breed and train ISDS reg border collies, you cannot register any puppies until both parents are eye tested by an approved vet for CEA & PRA, some dogs are also DNA tested for CEA. When a dog has been DNA tested and the result comes back as either having CEA or as a carrier, you can still breed from these animals, BUT only if bred to a DNA tested clear animal, the resulting pups would then need to be microchipped and DNA tested before they can be registered, the results of the DNA test will then be printed on the reg certificate. I believe that the only way to be sure when vetinary eye testing for CEA is to test puppies under 8 WEEKS of age, after that, carriers of CEA can sometimes appear to "go normal".

The new rules are:
All puppies to be micro chipped before they can be registered, this rule is in place now
From the 1st June 2013, all dogs and bitches that are to be bred from must be DNA tested for CEA. So from that date there will be no need to eye test litters of puppies.
Not sure when this rule will be in force - dogs now need to be eye tested by an approved vet for PRA when they are over two years old.

I have also just been informed that petlog will now transfer any puppies that have been micro chipped with the breeders name and address into the new owners details for free, it is only this first transfer that is free, any subsequent change of details will incur a £15 charge

Regards
Sue

[in the hills]

My collie loving neighbour has just told me about these changes. He took his dogs and bitches for DNA testing last week.

[doganjo]

DNA testing is the way to go - a simple cheek swab with a type of cotton bud.  They can define a great number of inherited diseases this way.  HD still needs an x-ray though. and believe me, breeding from dogs below 10 consistently does work - the lines in my dogs have never been above 5 or 6 even after 10 generations of breeding from French imported stock with only A level hips under their scheme (A, B C1, C2)

[SheepCrazy!]

Aw well my collie is a farm pup on the farm are his dad, aunt, both 10, his mother and her aunt both 4 all happy healthy hard working collies and that was a good enough reason for me to pick one of his litter. I took the only dog puppy out of 8 healthy pups. All now working dogs.

Probably and most importantly, I was picked by the farmer as a good home for the pup, All his litter were free to good homes only. As he was breeding his own replacements not breeding for profit. He has retained 3 of Toby's sisters who work both sheep and cattle. The two 10 year old dogs are happily retired on the farm.

Wouldn't it be nice if more farmers thought that way.

My pet hate though is pet animals not being neutered or spayed if your not going to breed. Why not! I've heard some appalling reasons like you could't possible cut his nuts ect off. 

Toby got done at 6 months. Since I've been  asked a few times to mate him but personally I think there's plenty of pups out there needing homes without me adding to them.

I wonder how many people have their working collie pups to the vet for a check up, when they change hands and do they get them their injections. I do know farmers who seem to think they don't need vaccinations or socialized their animals as they will never leave the farm. I don't agree with that mentality.

My first ever dog Sky was a Collie Whippet from the local dogs home fantastic dog didn't have any health problems until she was 12 when she got a dodgy heart she lived on til 15 and was pts because of Cancer, accidental mutts are fine it's the designer ones you've got to watch out for! 

[in the hills]

Before we finally decided on a collie, we did look through information on other breeds as we were worried as to whether a collie could live happily as a companion dog and do a little sheep work/obedience/agility etc.


We currently have a Flat coated retriever ..... hyper and as silly as they come but we love him. Did consider another but checked on current findings regarding cancer in the breed because we believe a problem exists. Can't remember exact figures but it was something like half would have cancer by 8 years of age and most die from it.    Won't go into all the ones that I know have died from it .... some only 12 mnths old. Found a blog by a lady that was only going to keep rescue ones in future. She thought that breeders weren't addressing a serious health problem and that maybe flatties should be out crossed. Put us off.