[doganjo]

How stupid Joe Public is.  Let's hope these two have got off with it.

Met a really nice, apparently sensible, and intelligent couple with a lovely happy Border Collie pup on our walk today.  Played very nicely with Allez and Freckles bowing to their superiority in age, and being rewarded with play bowing and a wee chase around (him chasing them and them looking round waiting for the wee chap to catch up)

As I always do, I complemented them on the  wee fella and asked if they'd got him locally - 'yes, a farm near Dollar'. And what's his breeding lines, said I?  'Don't know.  He's just a pup'.  Parents eye tested I said?  What's that, they replied.  I explained then tactfully said, oh well he'll probably be OK and you probably aren't going to breed with him but if you do you can get his eyes tested when he's a year old.

Why oh Why do people insist on buying pups from one off breeders who do not health test !  They don't pay any less and it could save them an awful lot of heartache in the future not to mention money!  High time there was a campaign!

[funkyfish]

Yup sooo frustrating! made the HUGE mistake of window shopping on Preloved- oh my god half the ads were for pups under 6 month old for sale with tag lines like- had him 2 weeks but my toddler is scared of him. Or he is too big for our flat- how many are stolen pups sold on?? Or from actual really stupid people! Some of the pups were only 12 weeks old and most pedigree!


Was tempted buy the Sibe Husky x Terrier-wrong, but cute!

[in the hills]

Doganjo, we have been looking at border collie pups on the net but by reading the adverts it does seem that most aren't from registered parents and I am guessing that therefore they won't have had any health tests carried out. Could I be wrong there  . Most say our bitch and dog from nearby farm .... or that type thing. Have found one litter with  both parents being IDSI registered but it doesn't mention health checks. Do the parents have to have had health checks in order to be registered or is that a separate thing?


Oooooo ...... bit confused myself and I do know a little bit about dogs. With Flat-coats, I could just ring the Society and ask for breeders planning suitable litters and be put on their waiting list but doesn't seem so simple with collies.


And yes Funkyfish, so sad when you look through the ads  . I want to take them all in.

[doganjo]

If collies are KC registered and you know the  registered name of the dog you can see on the website whether they have been tested or not(you need the exact correctly spelt name though), but breeders should have the certification in their possession for you to look at. Not sure of the regulations for the ISDS (International Sheep Dog Society.  This may help - http://www.isds.org.uk/society/dog_registration/eye_test_rules.html

http://www.isds.org.uk/society/dog_registration/documents/DNATestingFAQsBordercollies2013.pdf

You need to ask breeders if they have test certificates for CEA (Collie eye anomaly) and PRA (progressive retinal Atrophy) before you go looking at puppies because otherwise your heart will take over and the little cuddly puppy will come home with you.  I would have thought if advertising pups for sale they would state these tests had been done on the parents.  I certainly state that my dogs have low hip scores, and fact state exactly what they are.

Hope that helps

[SallyintNorth]

It's a tricky one, this.

If you are buying a pedigree (or in the case of collies, ISDS registered) pup, then 100% agree with Annie you want all relevant health checks and you should ask to see the evidence.

However, there is an argument to say that the less highly bred family mutt / farm collie is so much less likely to have any problems, you could be safer buying such a pup.

In an ideal world, of course both parents would have had all health checks anyway, but the fact is that the majority of unregistered dogs - especially mongrels - are so healthy and free from these kinds of defects that it simply doesn't occur to the owners to get these checks done.

All the cases of collie eye that I know about have been in dogs where one (or mostly both) parents were registered.  It seems to not generally occur in the general population of farm collies, where two dogs of generally uncertain parentage (but both free of symptomatic defects and from parents and litters also free of symptomatic defects) are mated.

in the hills - there will be reputable breeders of working / trial collies whose lists you could go on (for instance Derek Scrimgeour up here, David Kennard in North Devon, to name two I know personally and can recommend) - but for a pet/light working dog, personally I'd go for a less highly-bred one.  Best tactic is to find one locally you really like (in your case specifically checking temperament to suit life in a busy household with active children), find out how it was bred and see if the breeder is planning a similar litter.  Would your farmer neighbour be able to point you at such a one, or at farms locally who produce the odd litter of this type of dog?

[Brucklay]

I guess I didn't do my homework as well as I thought - we got our first dog Tess from a farm up the glen from working parents, we saw both parents and all puppies were very healthy. She was pts at 18+ and had only been at the vet for being spayed and arthritis in her hips in her old age, we've done the same again with Zip - working parents and healthy siblings hope he is with us as long as Tess was. 

[doganjo]

In an ideal world, of course both parents would have had all health checks anyway, but the fact is that the majority of unregistered dogs - especially mongrels - are so healthy and free from these kinds of defects that it simply doesn't occur to the owners to get these checks done.

I'm sorry but I disagree.  Mongrels are not necessarily automatically healthy.  I have had mongrels that weren't.

I have said before that Hybrid vigour does NOT apply to dog breeding.  If you breed a Labrador with hip dysplasia or PRA to a poodle with the same conditions - even though they are latent - then the resulting pups will have a very high chance of being so afflicted.

[in the hills]

Thanks SITN - my neighbour has said that he will look out for a litter. He knows that temperament is the most important thing for us and that it won't have that much actual sheep work to do. He did originally say that an unregistered pup would be fine for what we want it for but when I questioned him about health checks , he said that if we want a pup from checked parents then we would need to go for a registered one. He did say that he has come across occasional collies with eye problems but not often. All his dogs are health checked but he never sells pups only trained dogs that he lets go after selecting his trial dogs. Have seen some litters on the net where mum works on the farm but is also kept as a family pet and dad can be seen. Not sure whether in terms of temperament these maybe a better option than registered pups from serious trainers/trialling people ...... these are the people that my neighbour would get pups from.    ..... but then they probably won't be health checked.


Anyone know how prevalent CEA is in collies?


I do appreciate the importance of health checks but trying to balance a few different things.


SITN - my collie book is ordered    and neighbour says that I can go up to his farm and watch and ask as much as I like.

[Old Shep]

I understand your point Doganjo and agree if it was a lab or spaniel etc, but working sheepdogs are just a bit different.  Bred by farmers who understand stock I don't think you get the problems that you do in the "pedigree" side of the breed.  I have never known eye problems in a working sheep dog, but then my parents only bred when they wanted another themselves. I would never buy a KC "pedigree" border collie because they are too inbred and have completely impractical coats and too slow (imho).  To be honest I'd rather take my chances with a farm bred pup with no health checks (as long as I knew the farmer and both pups parents).

[colliewoman]

If you go for a well bred dog from working lines (I mean herding NOT agility) and stay away from those that breed for candy colours then generally you should be ok.
Health checks are important, but working history plays a part in this with sheepdogs IMO.
A displastic dog or a dog with limited sight can't work properly. If it doesn't work properly it doesn't get bred. Usually sheepdogs aren't bred so young as other breeds as the shepherd will want to see how the dog works first and that can take several years to decide.
Personally (and this is a personal statement not a recommendation) I wouldn't buy a KC registered Collie, as I don't think size/colour/pattern matters a jot for a sheepdog. Working ability does matter so I will always buy mine from someone who works them  properly.




HOWEVER you must beware there are hundred of people breeding BC's and calling them working dogs when they aren't.
There are even more breeding them for the candy colours Red merles being the favourite because you can charge 3 times the price.
When colour becomes the most important thing you can bet your life anything that should matter will go straight out of the window
I have had so many people ask me if they can put their dog over Red Dog, just so there will be different colour pups. She's spayed so it'll never happen but not one of the people asking me to breed her have ever asked me if she can work

[doganjo]

I think this is the biggest problem - there is absolutely no regulation on breeding dogs in the UK so anyone can do it - and Mr & Mrs Joe Public have very little information to guide them.

Just because a 'working' collie is bred does NOT mean it is free from CEA or PRA unless it's parents or grandparents have been tested clear.  A regular test is required unless DNA is used.(not sure if it is annual or bi-annual)

[sabrina]

Well being an owner of a collie (Rascal ) who has collie eye I would say to anyone do not put yourself through the risk. Health checks a must. He came from a working farm stock. both parents first class sheep dogs, yet poor Rascal has only 85 percent normal eye site. I had thought I had asked all the right question but what I should have done is asked to see paperwork, proof that health checks had been done on dog and bitch. Our vet told us that finding a collie pup now a days that does not have some form of the disease or carry the gene is hard to find. Rascal is a sweet loving dog, just over a year old who will never have a normal life.

[Alistair]

Is it right that you can't tell if they've got collie eye till 6months old?

[in the hills]

My neighbour has just taken his litter to have their eyes checked and they are less than 6 mnths ..... didn't ask him whether the test was for all eye conditions though    . I thought he said that they used to be checked annually but now have just one check and that's it. Spoke to him today again about diseases in collies. He said that in general they were a healthy breed and that most PRA had been eliminated. He said that CEA did not usually cause total blindness and that the pup would have it when bought and it did not usually get worse. Said some people wouldn't realize that their dog had it.


He said that he didn't think that many breeders tested for HD. Is that the case for collies?




Sabrina - how is your collie managing?

[doganjo]

Responsible breeders in every breed will do the health checks relevant to that breed.  These diseases are rarely totally eradicated.  Sorry but it's either ignorant people or wilfully irresponsible people who say these things.  As Sabrina has discovered paperwork is what matters - not hearsay.

Once again here is the list of required and recommended checks.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1100/abshealthreqs.pdf